D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

[mellored]

That is my point,

So... you like it then?

Oh I’d keep the discipline costing part identical to how it is now, and just add probably that you can 3 feet for every foot moved to move up to your Unarmored Movement speed bonus without suffering opportunity attacks. Or your way, or soemthing in that vein.

I wouldn't do more than 5' at low levels. But scaling it makes sense.

I guess up to your Unarmored Movement bonus would be ok. (Still 5' at level 1).

You are giving up your bonus punch, flurry, subclass, etc...

 

[mellored]

The one major factor in the monk's toolkit is mobility, both in the base class, and in most of the subclasses. It's clearly built so that its increased mobility compensates for its lack of direct power.

Might be best to compare it to an archer.
As both can readily choose their targets.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If it was me, I would make the middle catching ability free. It is already limited in many ways. I would consider a cost to make it last until the monk's next turn. You activate it with a reaction, spend a point and you and deflect and return as many missiles shot at you that turn.

You would be able to do this about one round before the archers realize that they should shoot the idiot with the lute.

My preference is to make it deflect any weapon attack. Otherwise I’m all for it.

It’s a level 4 ability, move it to 2 and make it deflect all weapon attacks spend discipline as a bonus action to enter a deflection stance where it doesn’t cost you a reaction to deflect attacks until the start of your next turn, add in the counterattack at 5, deflect magic attacks at level 6 or 7.

Basically replace patient defense’s current benefit with the above.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So... you like it then?

Yeah I think it’s good. Having slept on it, I like your ideas here more than I did yesterday.

I wouldn't do more than 5' at low levels. But scaling it makes sense.

I guess up to your Unarmored Movement bonus would be ok. (Still 5' at level 1).

You are giving up your bonus punch, flurry, subclass, etc...

Yeah I don’t think 10ft at level 2 or whatever is gonna unbalance the class sat next to the current step of the wind.

I’d also be cool with waiting longer to get the scaling, and make it not use any action, just cost extra movement.

Where I’d be happy to add your Misstep ability is as an addition to that.

So, maybe…

You can move up to your UM bonus without OAs as a bonus action(at-will alternative to SoTW). Spend 1 Discipline to [SoTW]. If you miss an attack you can use the at-will movement without spending a bonus action.

Flavor is you’re so skilled at controlling and using your own momentum and that of enemies that even when you miss you never overextend and can turn the movement into a roll, kick off a shield*, or otherwise slip through the weapons and defenses of your enemies with a grace that makes the near-impossible look easy.


*the backflip off the shield image is truly too badass to just abandon.

Anyway, sorry if I was being a jerk about it yesterday.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean. Not going to the end of the world if they both have the same maneuvers. Casters share the same spells.

But IMO, it would be better for them to be different.

I think this is a fair worry, but I also do like the idea of the Rogue, Monk, and Ranger, the three (to my mind) skirmishers, having a movement based ability in common.

Of course I’d also give Monks 3 skills if I had my way, or Expertise (probably not both), and tie the three together even more, but I think bonus action move Dash for Ranger and Disengage for Monk, or soemthing very similar, would create and interesting and evocative overlap, just like the beefy warriors all getting shields and stuff to hold the line and survive.

But to the idea of making them more different, what if the monk lost Evasion, and instead at level 7 they can “deflect” the damage of any Dex save effect they are subjected to? Idk if the math works out well there, but I’d be super down for only Rogues getting Evasion.

Gotta go to work. If no one else does it I’ll run the numbers of deflect [stuff] against both average Dex save spells and monster abilities, and higher tuned stuff like fireball. I have a feeling it would need an upgrade to the scaling at higher level, but we will see.

 

[mellored]

I think this is a fair worry, but I also do like the idea of the Rogue, Monk, and Ranger, the three (to my mind) skirmishers, having a movement based ability in common.

Hmmm...

Monk: disengage and dash.
Rogue: disengage and sneak.
Ranger: dash and sneak.

I mean, thematical that works. But I kind of feel exactly the same features would still be less fun.

 

[mellored]

So... let's have every ability have a mini- version that doesn't take DP, but you spend DP to do the full version.


Step of the Wind
As a bonus action, you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.
1 DP: increase the distance up to your speed.


Flurry of Blows
As a bonus action, make an Unarmed Attack.
1DP: increase to 2 Unarmed Attacks.


Patient Defense
As a reaction, you impose disadvantages on an attack against you.
1DP: disadvantages on all attacks until the start of your turn.


Defective Missile
As a reaction, reduce the damage of a ranged attack
1DP: it does not take your reaction.

 

[mellored]

Slow Fall
Reduce damage by 5 times your monk level
1DP: 10 times your monk level

Stunning Stunning
Once per turn, when you hit with an Unarmed Attack, the target makes a Constitution save or is Dazes
1DP: the target is Stunned.
(Might be a bit much?)

Empowered Stike
....
1DP: You can chose cold, fire, or lightning. This last until your next short rest.

Acrobat Movement
...
1DP: you can stay there until next turn.

 

[Kinematics]

So, the Miss Step idea evolved from the mention of the Drunken Master subclass getting a free disengage when you use Flurry of Blows (plus an extra 10' speed for that turn). This also seems related to Step of the Wind.

Looking at Step of the Wind and features tied to it:

• Step of the Wind gives you a Disengage+Dash combo as a bonus action for 1 DP. The rogue's Cunning Action can do either Disengage or Dash as a bonus action for no cost.
• Warrior of the Hand gets Step of the Wind for no cost starting at level 11.
• Warrior of Shadow can teleport through shadow with a bonus action at level 6, and can spend 1 DP at level 11 to not require the shadow. It also gets a free attack (with advantage) with the level 11 version. (This is not Step of the Wind, but has similar purpose.)
• Warrior of the Elements gets a fly (and swim) speed when using Step of the Wind, starting at level 11. At level 17, it also grants an extra 20' of movement, and does damage to anyone you step next to.

And looking at the action economy of the bonus action, your competing options are:

• Make an unarmed strike for free
• Make two unarmed strikes for 1 DP (Flurry of Blows)
• Disengage+Dash for 1 DP (Step of the Wind)
• Teleport + 1 unarmed strike for 1 DP (Improved Shadow Step, level 11)

There are other options, but less related to the current topic, so I'm not going to include them here.

So our baseline bonus action is an unarmed strike. Spending 1 DP on Flurry of Blows to increase that to two unarmed strikes seems entirely reasonable.

Cunning Action shows that it's entirely reasonable to have Disengage or Dash as a bonus action for no cost. Step of the Wind has a cost because it combines the two into a single bonus action.

The free Shadow Step (level 6) is essentially a Dash+Disengage move, since it's a 60' teleport. You only pay DP on the higher level because it adds damage (similar to Flurry of Blows) and avoids the shadow limitation.

Still, as a baseline ability, I don't think I would disagree with Step of the Wind having a cost.

Now, because of how monk is designed for damage, losing your bonus action attack is pretty significant. That's 1/3 to 1/2 of your damage output. A rogue might give up his bonus action for Cunning Action, but his primary damage is Sneak Attack, so very little is lost unless he misses entirely. Other jobs similarly put the bulk of their damage in the main attack action.

Because so many things revolve around a monk's bonus action, including almost half of the class's potential damage, using it for small gains (such as a 5' disengage) feels like a poor application. At the same time, it needs more viable actions that don't require DP.

Is it adequate to have a full Disengage as a no-cost bonus action, similar to Cunning Action? Honestly, it doesn't feel right. Aside from being more of a rogue thing, it doesn't feel like it fits the thematics of the monk. A 5' disengage is almost entirely worse than that.

However the example given of kicking off the enemy's shield in order to get space does seem more in keeping. However, while it was framed based on the pun on Miss Step to only be granted when you miss, I think it would fit better if it worked when you hit.

So then the question is, is a bonus action unarmed strike + Disengage a valid no-cost option? And while I don't think it's worth a full DP, I also don't think I could agree with it being free.

But... What about a different cost? 1 Unarmed Strike is considered the value of 1 DP (see: Flurry of Blows), so maybe half a DP? In other words, half an Unarmed Strike. And we can put the tweak on the base martial arts ability.

Bonus Unarmed Strike: When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn. If you hit with this Unarmed Strike, you can choose to do half damage and get the benefit of the Disengage action.

If you missed with the strike, you're out of position, and would have a harder time moving out of the way. But if you hit, you can use the recoil from the strike to push you out of the way before the enemy can strike back. By using part of the damage to push yourself away (thus doing half damage), you can still get the visual effect of backflipping off the enemy's shield.

I'm not sure about the difference between a full Disengage, and just 5' of movement that doesn't provoke Opportunity Attacks. Can polish that out later.

Patient Defense
As a reaction, you impose disadvantages on an attack against you.
1DP: disadvantages on all attacks until the start of your turn.

And I do like this. Effectively a built-in Blade Ward for the class. Have the same melee limit to not clash with Deflect Missiles.

Defective Missile
As a reaction, reduce the damage of a ranged attack
1DP: it does not take your reaction.

And using the DP to make the deflection not take a reaction I think is a really nice option.

Defensively you'd be better off using Patient Defense's Dodge for 1 DP, but if you didn't plan for that, you could still burn a bunch of DP to deflect several missiles and 1 melee attack from the passive Patient Defense benefit.

 

[mellored]

Where I’d be happy to add your Misstep ability is as an addition to that.

So, maybe…

You can move up to your UM bonus without OAs as a bonus action(at-will alternative to SoTW). Spend 1 Discipline to [SoTW]. If you miss an attack you can use the at-will movement without spending a bonus action.

Might be a bit much for level 1. Probably best to keep them separate.

Step of the Wind at 1, including at-will.

And Miss Step to level 7 (?). Which is 5' on a miss.

*the backflip off the shield image is truly too badass to just abandon.

True.

Anyway, sorry if I was being a jerk about it yesterday.

Didn't take it that way.
Just didn't understand what you meant by trade-off.

So then the question is, is a bonus action unarmed strike + Disengage a valid no-cost option? And while I don't think it's worth a full DP, I also don't think I could agree with it being free.

So... Unarmed Strike + disengage half the time?


Step of the Wind
As a bonus action, you can move up to your Unarmed Movement (minimum 5') without provoking an opportunity attack.
1 DP: Increase the distance to your speed.

Miss Step (level 7)
As an enemy side steps or raises their shield, you redirect the momentum of your attacks in order to get into a better position.
When you miss with an Unarmed Attack you can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.