D&D 5E The core issue of the martial/caster gap is just the fundamental design of d20 fantasy casters.

[Emberashh]

I am, their isnt much difference, just subclasses added, and streamlined some weird stuff like deadly strikes to extra attacks and action surges.

I don't believe you can look at 8 and 9 side by side and come to this conclusion.

So much do I not believe this I'm inclined to think you're not actually looking at them at all.

 

[Tony Vargas]

No it shouldn't. If you want to play like that you can play like that, but you should not tell other players how to play.

Specialist wizards being required to actually specialize (either with the barely-restrictive pick one spell from your speciality, or the old opposition schools) wouldn't be telling other players how to play their characters, it's differentiating specialists from eachother, and from generalists - which is what you'd play if you wanted to just pick any spell every time. It'd make the choice of wizard sub-class more meaningful.

I've got another character I am playing now who is a 19th level Bladesinger and real specializes in summing demons, Fey and Celestials and binding them, and she also binds Fey and Devil NPCs she comes across and manages to ensnare them.

Oh and she does not have the Wish spell at all. She only has 3 9th level spells in her book - Psychic Scream, Gate and Foresight.
Other popular "must have" spells she does not have in her book include: Forcecage, Simulacrum, True Seeing, Synaptic Static, Dimension Door, Lemunds tiny Hut, Fireball, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern .... Again, all my choice not to have these spells!

So you're particularly into one of the most powerful 5e spells Planar Binding, instead of some of the others, that you mention. OK. Yes, that's your choice. Wizards have a lot of powerful choices, enough that choosing not to indulge in some of them doesn't leave you non-viable, nor even terribly sub-optimal.

Wouldn't it be nice if martials had that much viable choice, too?

 

[M_Natas]

I said it before: the base Wizard should have a MUCH smaller spell list. Half (or more) of their spell list should come from their subclass, so that specialists can be ACTUAL SPECIALISTS. The fact that two different subclasses of Wizards can end up with the exact same spell list is stupid and a grave mistake.

If you pick Diviner, you're gonna get a TON of Divination spells. If you pick a War Wizard, most of your spells will be close range option so you HAVE to wade into battle. Illusiontist? Don't even THINK of picking up that Fireball!

The class can have flexibility without giving free reign over that flexibility to every character of that class.


Wizard fans are the worst. They can't accept not being top dog and they have WAY too much power over the discourse. WotC always folding backwards in four to please them...

That's because you're not a Wizard Fan. The Wizard Fan fantasy is really simple:

I'm actually working right now on a redesigned wizard.
I have the class and subclass design ready. And one subclass can cover all 8 subclasses of the PHB.
The main design element is, that spells are divided into general spells, advanced (proficient) spells and expert spells.
Any wizard can learn any general spells. To learn advanced spells of a school of magic you need proficiency in that school of magic and if you wanna learn expert spells you need expertise for that school of magic.
Basically: Most level 1 and 2 spells are general, most level 3 to 6 spells need proficiency and most level 7 to 9 spells need expertise.

The main wizard class grants you proficiency with one school of magic at level 1.
At level two you can choose between two subclasses: the specialist and the generalist.
The specialist can pick expertise in one school of magic and gets boni for those spells (and over all the levels up to three proficiencs).
The generalist get an additional 3 school of magic proficiencies at level 2 an than up to 7 of the 8 proficienies over all the levels.
So the specialist gets access to expert spells of one school of magic but has less flexibility.
The generalist gets more flexibility but can't access the strongest spells of each school of magic, but he gets some cool feats, for example that allow him to combine two spells.

The redesign of the classes is finished.
But the biggest problem are the spells. I'm working with the SRD so I can publish it anywhere (to my own 5e heartbreaker ), but the schools of magic are very imbalanced.
There are several spell levels where some schools of magic don't get any spells. So my main work now is to create enough spells to fill the gaps. I also have to create (expert) spells to replace some of the better schools of magics subclass features that ate lost because of me reducing the wizard two subclasses that cover 8 subclasses of the PHB.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Specialist wizards being required to actually specialize (either with the barely-restrictive pick one spell from your speciality, or the old opposition schools) wouldn't be telling other players how to play their characters, it's differentiating specialists from eachother, and from generalists - which is what you'd play if you wanted to just pick any spell every time. It'd make the choice of wizard sub-class more meaningful.

So you're particularly into one of the most powerful 5e spells Planar Binding, instead of some of the others, that you mention. OK. Yes, that's your choice. Wizards have a lot of powerful choices, enough that choosing not to indulge in some of them doesn't leave you non-viable, nor even terribly sub-optimal.

Wouldn't it be nice if martials had that much viable choice, too?

What options could a non-magical character possibly have that compare with that thought? Make your martials supernatural at a certain point, however, and you're golden.

 

[Undrave]

Or let players decide what spells they want their PC Wizards to have!

This is the thing that bothers me about all this, increasing options increases player agency and control over their character design. Reducing it reduces this.

They can choose to NOT be a specialist if they just want free reign. And restrictions breed creativity.

No it shouldn't. If you want to play like that you can play like that, but you should not tell other players how to play.

Specialist wizards being required to actually specialize (either with the barely-restrictive pick one spell from your speciality, or the old opposition schools) wouldn't be telling other players how to play their characters, it's differentiating specialists from eachother, and from generalists - which is what you'd play if you wanted to just pick any spell every time. It'd make the choice of wizard sub-class more meaningful.

What Tony said. I think picking to play a Specialist should MATTER! You should actually have to specialized and be given incentives to do so. Heck, I don't even want to restrict the spells a Wizard can add to their spell books by copying, I just want to restrict the free ones they get at level up. Getting ANY two spells is actually VERY overpowered IMO.

But the biggest problem are the spells. I'm working with the SRD so I can publish it anywhere (to my own 5e heartbreaker ), but the schools of magic are very imbalanced.

Oh yeah that's definately an issue.

 

[ECMO3]

Specialist wizards being required to actually specialize (either with the barely-restrictive pick one spell from your speciality, or the old opposition schools) wouldn't be telling other players how to play their characters,

If you are telling other players what spells they can and can't get then you are doing exactly this.

it's differentiating specialists from eachother, and from generalists - which is what you'd play if you wanted to just pick any spell every time.

No it is not. I WANT to just pick any spell every time and I WANT to play a specialist when I play a Wizard and i WANT players to be able to do that if the WANT when I am DM.

It'd make the choice of wizard sub-class more meaningful.

It would make it more restrictive, it would not make it any more meaningful IMO.

Wouldn't it be nice if martials had that much viable choice, too?

I think they do have a lot of choices. Not as powerful choices at high levels but enough available through spells, subclasses and other class choices.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If you are telling other players what spells they can and can't get then you are doing exactly this.



No it is not. I WANT to just pick any spell every time and I WANT to play a specialist when I play a Wizard and i WANT players to be able to do that if the WANT when I am DM.




It would make it more restrictive, it would not make it any more meaningful IMO.



I think they do have a lot of choices. Not as powerful choices at high levels but enough available through spells, subclasses and other class choices.

This is why we run our own games, at our own tables, where we can do what we want.

 

[Hussar]

I think they do have a lot of choices. Not as powerful choices at high levels but enough available through spells, subclasses and other class choices.

Really? What choices does my 11th level Rogue Assassin get when he turns 12th level? And, please don't say ASI, because everyone gets that.

A caster gets 2 new spells plus additional spell slots. That's two more options than any non caster gets. And they get that EVERY LEVEL.

 

[ECMO3]

Really? What choices does my 11th level Rogue Assassin get when he turns 12th level? And, please don't say ASI, because everyone gets that.

I said they had a lot of choices, they just were not that powerful. Even choosing an Assassin, you still had by my count 13 different choices to make as a Rogue through 12th level, not counting so it is not like you did not have choices.

ASIs are part of the class chassis (for all classes). At the levels you get an ASI you have an overwhelming number of choices. At each of 4th, 8th, 10th and 12th level you could choose from one of 75 different feats (not counting racially restricted feats) or 27 different combinations of an ASI which is around 16 Trillion different possible combinations from your ASIs/feats alone through 12th level.

To clarify what I said; they have a lot of choices, not all are powerful.

A caster gets 2 new spells plus additional spell slots.

Most casters do not choose new spells every level and of the 12 different casters spread through the classes and subclasses only Wizards can choose 2 new spells every level.

1. Clerics, Druids, Artificers and Paladins get all of the leveled spells automatically. There are no choices here. The only choice they have in terms of spells known are Cantrips, and for the Paladin only if they take the Blessed Warrior fighting style.

2. Rangers can choose 1 spell every 2 levels after 2nd. They can also choose at third level to take primal knowledge and certain subclasses that give them additional spells, but this is a one-time choice with fixed spells, not a new choice they make again and again.

3. Warlocks, Bards and Sorcers in general get to choose 1 additional spell per level after 1st level, although it varies by level.

4. Wizards are the only caster that can choose two new spells a level.

5. Monks can choose the Way of the Shadow or Way of the elements, both which makes them casters but Way of Shadows offers no further choices on spell selection, Elemental offers 4 additional choices over the next 17 levels I think.

6. Fighters and Rogues can choose subclasses that allow them to choose approximately 1 spell every 3 levels.

I believe that covers every single caster available in the game.

That's two more options than any non caster gets. And they get that EVERY LEVEL.

Most of them do not get to choose 2 new spells every level. Most of them do not get to choose 1 new spell every level.

.

 

[Hussar]

I was talking about Fighters and your Rogue, at 3rd level, had the choice not to choose the Assassin subclass and thereby limit himself going forward.

Your subclass is a choice you make from your class chassis.

Ohhh, goodie. I get a total of ONE choice after character generation. Wow, be still my beating heart. The fighter gets about the same. Wowsers, that is so free and not limited at all.