D&D 5E The core issue of the martial/caster gap is just the fundamental design of d20 fantasy casters.

[Undrave]

Also it is rare that Wizards have the spells in their book and unheard of that they have them prepared to be as effective across the board as implied here.

Typically Wizards have 4 spells per level after 1st to choose from, sometimes it is lots more than that, but I think it is lower than 5 more often than it is more than 5. Then they are further limited in play by the number they can prepare which typically comes down to slightly more than 2 spells a level.

So While Protection from Evil and Good is boss when you are fighting a Vampire, and cheap on a 1st-level slot, you probably don't have that prepared unless you know you will be fighting a Vampire.

It's a FANTASY, it doesn't have to happen exactly like that. It's the high the Wizard player is chasing.

I think most players - playing both Wizards and non-Wizards like this design and I think few if any are going to want to change that.

I don't and I'm not alone. I think it's dumb that your so-called Specialist Wizard can just ignore their specialty if they want. You can be a Diviner who just picked up the class for the cool power and not have a single Divination spell. Instead of 'pick 2 spells' it should be 'Pick 1 spell from your specialty and 1 other spell'. Look at the most popular spells and spread them amongst the different subclass so no single Wizard can have all of them.

I disagree with that based on play experience and playtest feedback.

Every time WOTC tries to nerf the Wizard (or Sorcerer) they are met with an avalanche of negative feedback, further things like Cantrip Formulas, which really empower the Wizard and making all the raceial and feat spells castable with spell slots over other classes are hugely popular.

I have never heard a player at a table complain about those things.

Yeah, the Caster players don't want their toys taken away and they go whine to WotC who just folds because the Caster players are the only ones that matter.

There you have it.

Delete the Wizard.

It's the only way to get Big Robe out of the design process.

The Wizard is the most bland caster right now, why do we even need it anymore? The only thing they're known for is a mechanic (Spellbook). Just use my Library Warlock if BOOKS matter so much to you

 

[Undrave]

That's another problem, healing is not great in 5e, and support is very much a caster's game and comes with a big side of versatility/power.
Even a faithful take on the 4e Warlord as "leader" (Support) role would be strictly inferior to 5e renditions of Cleric, Bard or Druid. Because casters are no longer bounded by role, and neo-Vancian slot-casting is so flexible.

Also, without a universal resolution mechanic, makinga Warlord is a PAIN IN THE BEHIND! You can't just say 'this ally gains +2 to their next attack roll', now you have to throw in wording to support those damn saving throws otherwise your Warlord is only supporting half the team.

It's friggin' obnoxious.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's a FANTASY, it doesn't have to happen exactly like that. It's the high the Wizard player is chasing.

I don't and I'm not alone. I think it's dumb that your so-called Specialist Wizard can just ignore their specialty if they want. You can be a Diviner who just picked up the class for the cool power and not have a single Divination spell. Instead of 'pick 2 spells' it should be 'Pick 1 spell from your specialty and 1 other spell'. Look at the most popular spells and spread them amongst the different subclass so no single Wizard can have all of them.

Yeah, the Caster players don't want their toys taken away and they go whine to WotC who just folds because the Caster players are the only ones that matter.

The Wizard is the most bland caster right now, why do we even need it anymore? The only thing they're known for is a mechanic (Spellbook). Just use my Library Warlock if BOOKS matter so much to you

Is there a version of D&D you prefer where casters work the way you want? Maybe a 3pp supplement or some homebrew that nerfs wizards? Seems like the best answer and also the one most likely to be feasible.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Really? You weren't around when 3e came out? There was an entire forum, a very, very large forum, where 3e was a verbotten topic because of how rancorous the arguments were. There was a very good reason why 3e largely rejected all things 2e - the whole "back to the dungeon" schtick. It would be years before you could say anything good about 2e without getting dogpiled.

I was here, even. And Gleemax and whatever the not quite as bad WotC forum was before that. Heck, and UseNet before that... No, I did not notice 2e being trashed a lot. THAC0 still gets it, but aside from that, nah. It may just not have been of interest to me, tho, since it was 2e that had lost me c1995, and I came back for 3.0

 

[RareBreed]

Raistlin was a singular example within the setting though. Sure the other example have power, and by the ends of their arcs are juiced up, but there are leagues of other 'Wizards' in many of those settings who have no capacity to reach the plot driven heights of all of them.

But Raistlin is who the reader identifies with. Same with Elric being the main protagonist. The readers want to hear the tales of Raistlin and Elric, not Joe The Average Mage.

There's a great line from Silence of the Lambs: "We begin by coveting what we see everyday". When people see the same kind of thing in stories over and over, there are many who will want what they see. This applies to real life and fiction. And what is it that they see in stories that leads to this desire? Quite often, power. But the power is just a means to an end. The true goal, is the ability to bend reality to overcome and take control of one's life and destiny.

Mages offer something us mere mortals in real life don't have: power to defy and shape reality. And with that power comes the ability to escape the drudgery of reality and take control. For many players, TTRPG's are a needed escape from reality.

Of course, all people are unique and not everyone thinks this way. But many studies have shown that people are influenced by what they see all the time. Heck, we have a new "job" category of Influencer nowadays. If something didn't have appeal to a majority of users, the fad will quickly die out.

 

[Scribe]

But Raistlin is who the reader identifies with. Same with Elric being the main protagonist. The readers want to hear the tales of Raistlin and Elric, not Joe The Average Mage.

There's a great line from Silence of the Lambs: "We begin by coveting what we see everyday". When people see the same kind of thing in stories over and over, there are many who will want what they see. This applies to real life and fiction. And what is it that they see in stories that leads to this desire? Quite often, power. But the power is just a means to an end. The true goal, is the ability to bend reality to overcome and take control of one's life and destiny.

Mages offer something us mere mortals in real life don't have: power to defy and shape reality. And with that power comes the ability to escape the drudgery of reality and take control. For many players, TTRPG's are a needed escape from reality.

Of course, all people are unique and not everyone thinks this way. But many studies have shown that people are influenced by what they see all the time. Heck, we have a new "job" category of Influencer nowadays. If something didn't have appeal to a majority of users, the fad will quickly die out.

Sure, and if Wizard players were the sole protagonist, I would be onboard.

They are not however. It is a team game, a collaboration, a Party.

Its been a long time, but Raistlin wasnt in a party in Legends. He didnt need one (yes he used the Cleric I know).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Mages offer something us mere mortals in real life don't have: power to defy and shape reality. And with that power comes the ability to escape the drudgery of reality and take control. For many players, TTRPG's are a needed escape from reality.

:raises hand:
Yep, I consider TTRPGs escapist entertainment.
That's one reason I'm bothered by the pervasive double-standard that brings us the Martial/Caster Gap
Because pervasive double-standards are the kind of the things I'd like to escape from.

 

[FallenRX]

Look at Fighter 8 versus Fighter 9. A lot changed, and it wasn't just the addition of a subclass.

I am, their isnt much difference, just subclasses added, and streamlined some weird stuff like deadly strikes to extra attacks and action surges.

 

[overgeeked]

:raises hand:
Yep, I consider TTRPGs escapist entertainment.
That's one reason I'm bothered by the pervasive double-standard that brings us the Martial/Caster Gap
Because pervasive double-standards are the kind of the things I'd like to escape from.

Exactly. It begs the question. That stance assumes the conclusion that powerful wizards are the only viable escapist fantasy. Escape into a powerful mage isn't the only escapist fantasy people are looking for in fantasy games. Escape into a badass normal, escape into a ultra-powerful ninja, escape into a knight in shining armor, escape into an absurdly long-lived elf or dwarf, escape into a powerful cleric calling on the power of the gods, etc.

There's nothing wrong with wizards being powerful. The problem is everyone else is the B-team at best.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't and I'm not alone.

I said I think most like the design and I stand by that statement. I did not say all like it.

I think it's dumb that your so-called Specialist Wizard can just ignore their specialty if they want.

Well in a new campaign, I am about to play an Encantment Wizard that will have no Enchantment spells at all until 3rd level probably. You can think it is dumb all you want, and if you think it is dumb you probably should not build your character this way. But part of player agency is letting me decide what is and is not dumb for my PC.

I will tell you one spell I am going to have eventually, and that is Dissonant Whispers, which is not even on the Wizard list.

You can be a Diviner who just picked up the class for the cool power and not have a single Divination spell. Instead of 'pick 2 spells' it should be 'Pick 1 spell from your specialty and 1 other spell'.

No it shouldn't. If you want to play like that you can play like that, but you should not tell other players how to play.

I've got another character I am playing now who is a 19th level Bladesinger and real specializes in summing demons, Fey and Celestials and binding them, and she also binds Fey and Devil NPCs she comes across and manages to ensnare them. She has several properties including a tower, a house and a warehouse that all have chambers just for this purpose. This is not how I planned the character, but it is where the story drove her and it started well after she chose her subclass.

Oh and she does not have the Wish spell at all. She only has 3 9th level spells in her book - Psychic Scream, Gate and Foresight.

Other popular "must have" spells she does not have in her book include: Forcecage, Simulacrum, True Seeing, Synaptic Static, Dimension Door, Lemunds tiny Hut, Fireball, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern .... Again, all my choice not to have these spells!

Look at the most popular spells and spread them amongst the different subclass so no single Wizard can have all of them.

Or let players decide what spells they want their PC Wizards to have!

This is the thing that bothers me about all this, increasing options increases player agency and control over their character design. Reducing it reduces this.

The Wizard is the most bland caster right now, why do we even need it anymore? The only thing they're known for is a mechanic (Spellbook). Just use my Library Warlock if BOOKS matter so much to you

Well I play lots of different characters, I generally find Wizards to be one of the more fun classes. At very high levels most classes, including Wizards, become less fun.

The most fun I have is with Rangers and Rogues. Specifically Fey Wanderer Rangers (they are the only ones I play) that dump Constitution, max wisdom and play with a good Charisma and beat the Bards and Paladins on Charisma checks, running around with an Army of Fey on the battlefield and throwing around fear and charms like it is going out of style.

I have fun with all kinds of Rogues, but I am usually loading up on skills and occasionally getting getting expertise in deception and good charisma and Disguise Self through something.