D&D (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

[Shardstone]

I do not see it really good at early levels.
It is completely MAD, you really need 15,15,15,8,8,8 with +1/+1/+1 ASIs to be good in combat.
So you can have DEX,CON and WIS 16 so you can compete with other frontliners. As otherwise you do not have AC or HP to be in front lines.

That leaves you with STR, INT and CHA of 8 or knows as "weak, dumb and ugly"

So you sacrifice much of your roleplay utility for only combat, best you can do is double up on your bonuses and have Stealth, Perception, Insight and Survival skills and forget about all others.

I think having the bonus attack below level 5 alleviates a lot of those. You don't really need high wisdom between 1-5, you only need the Dex and Con.

From level 5 up, the monk gets worse every level because it is MAD.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It's not quite as bad as all that (though it's close). A 14 CON (after species modifiers) is plenty.

But yes, it is a class which has probably the strongest disincentive for stat diversity in the entire book. The other MAD classes tend to lose out on option effectiveness rather than survivability as a result of a suboptimal stat array while the monk loses out on both.

The real issue with being MAD doesn't kick in until later levels when the ASIs or feats fall way behind. And the new feats are a side-nerf to the monk as they make it harder for your extra stats to keep up

 

[mellored]

Necro.

Since the monk is really good at early levels, do you think that could contribute to this idea of WotC seeing the class as overtuned? Maybe they think the class SHOULD be weak late game since its so strong early game. Bad idea if so though.

They said what they think on the last video.

"The main pain point is the constraints of discipline points" or something like that.

And they will go though and try to reduce costs, somehow.

My personal vote is to make a mini version of step of the wind, and a mini version of Patient Defense that don't cost DP.

I.e.
Step of the Wind
As a bonus action, you can move 5' without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
If you spend 1 DP, then you can instead take the dash and disengage actions.

Patient Defense
As a bonus action you gain +2 AC and Dexterity savings throws.
If you spend 1DP the bonus is +4 (roughly equal to disadvantage).

 

[Willie the Duck]

I do not see it really good at early levels.

I see them as very hard to play in a way where it wouldn't be easier to play a Dex-based fighter or a rogue.

It is completely MAD, you really need 15,15,15,8,8,8 with +1/+1/+1 ASIs to be good in combat.
So you can have DEX,CON and WIS 16 so you can compete with other frontliners. As otherwise you do not have AC or HP to be in front lines.

This is hyperbole. A standard array of 15/14/13/12/10/8 leading to top stats of 16/16/13 or 17/14/14 is still good thanks to Flurry. And you fight like a skirmisher not a tank.

Any set of score is workable. However, what you end up with is a 15-16 AC, d8+13-16 Con character who can either flurry or spend a resource to disengage after attacking. While their Dex is only 16, a Dex-Fighter can wear breastplate and shield; and the rogue can stand back and shoot (as can a monk, but sneak attack works at range, flurry less so).

Just to reiterate, not saying monks are unplayable at low level, just that I don't see the 'really good at low levels' bit, particularly not to the level that would make the case for WotC thinking them overtuned.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The real issue with being MAD doesn't kick in until later levels when the ASIs or feats fall way behind. And the new feats are a side-nerf to the monk as they make it harder for your extra stats to keep up

Certainly it's more noticeable at the higher levels. But, IMO, it's more possible for a player to put themselves behind the eight-ball with a suboptimal stat array at level 1 with a monk than with any other class.

You don't put the max you can in both DEX and WIS at level 1, and your PC is just permanently behind on AC for the rest of the game with no way to address it (outside of outright abandoning class features).

I struggle to think of a class that can suffer a similar drawback from a failure to maximize 2 stats. Rangers and Paladins and artificers can all wear armor and choose spells without saves (and paladins can dip hexblade).

 

[Neonchameleon]

Any set of score is workable. However, what you end up with is a 15-16 AC,

Yes. The Monk struggles to scale - but 15-16 AC for a character without a shield is as good as it gets for a character who doesn't have magic or 200GP armour. Monks should be compared to two weapon or great weapon wielders. And that's where you'd expect them at low level.

d8+13-16 Con character who can either flurry or spend a resource to disengage after attacking. While their Dex is only 16, a Dex-Fighter can wear breastplate and shield;

And get outdamaged hard. Monks are glass cannons; sword and board fighters are bricks. And Breastplates cost 400GP (so not starting or poor person stuff) and only gives 16 AC to fighters with Dex 14.

At level 4 a rapier and shield fighter with dex 18 and duelist style does d8+6 (average 10.5) damage per attack and attacks once per round without Action Surge; a monk wielding a staff gets 2 attacks doing d8+4 (average 8.5 or 17 total) damage each. The monk is doing about 50% more DPR here.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Certainly it's more noticeable at the higher levels. But, IMO, it's more possible for a player to put themselves behind the eight-ball with a suboptimal stat array at level 1 with a monk than with any other class.

You don't put the max you can in both DEX and WIS at level 1, and your PC is just permanently behind on AC for the rest of the game with no way to address it (outside of outright abandoning class features).

I struggle to think of a class that can suffer a similar drawback from a failure to maximize 2 stats.

Paladin (non-bladelock). You're permanently behind on either attacks or saves if you don't maximise Str (or arguably dex) and Cha.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Paladin (non-bladelock). You're permanently behind on either attacks or saves if you don't maximise Str (or arguably dex) and Cha.

Paladin and Ranger are the only ones that come close. I'd argue that generally DCs aren't as important for them as they are for the monk since they have a lot more options for how they spend their resources but I could see how some folks' mileage may vary.

But, as a comparison, what does a monk get out of a less than ideal (but still positive WIS stat) vs. a Paladin with a less than ideal but still positive CHA stat?

The monk gets poorly-scaled DCs on its abilities where a DC is relevant and reduced AC, with the same benefits to WIS saves and skills as anyone else would get from having WIS at whatever level they have it.

The Paladin gets poorly-scaled DCs on its spells where a DC is relevant, no impact on AC, and, when they get their aura, a bump to ALL their saves and the saves of whoever is close to them. The bump may be less than what they could do if the CHA stat was better, but it is still a bonus vs. what other PC classes would get.

 

[mellored]

Yes. The Monk struggles to scale - but 15-16 AC for a character without a shield is as good as it gets for a character who doesn't have magic or 200GP armour.

All other characters with 15 AC and d8 hit dice have ranged attacks.

Yes, the monk does as well, but I don't think many people play the monk to shoot a bow.

 

[Neonchameleon]

All other characters with 15 AC amd d8 hit dice have ranged attacks.

Yes, the monk does as well, but I don't think many people play the monk to shoot a bow.

And ranged attacks (without x-bow master) only do a single attack before level 5. The monk is a glass cannon - but is at low levels very hard hitting.

After level 5 not so much. They have the MAD-scaling issue, and (like two weapon fighters and rangers) get less out of an extra attack than two handed folks do. But there are reasons WotC thinks they are very effective at low level.