D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Micah Sweet]

Using high level abilities.

When PCs advance to the higher level they gat access to abilities, often magic, that trivialize many things. As discussed above, many DMs tend to try to negate or limit these capabilities in order to run a games that are like lower level games. When the DM does this, they often prevent the higher level PC fromn using their powerful abilities by saying that they just don't work, or someone has some countering magic, or some other folley. Rather than celebrate what makes a high level PC different, they attempt to make the high level PC fit into the cookie mold of a lower level PC. Absolutely not. One result is not indicative of all results - and that is exactly the mentality I counsel against for enjoyable high level play.

Don't get me wrong. I expect there to be high level combats filled with powerful abilities at high level. The players have many routes and options at higher level, but combat is going to be an often executed option.

However, when it is, it isn't just bigger numbers. The nature of the abilities change the combat. There is no lower level, "You just die" spell. There is no equivalent to Foresight or Timestop. The high level magics - and high level abilities of many of the classes - change how the game works. Your argument was mostly true about 4E - it was just a numbers game there - but not true of 5E, 3E or earlier editions. The game is designed to change in how it functions as higher level abilities are accessed and new opportunities arise.

If you're running high level games and they work - great. If you're finding your games fall apart, consider rethinking your approach as I've suggested to see if you're leaving opportunity on the floor. Essentially, if you ever negate or lament the abilities of a PC - you're not creating the environment that I've found best supports high level play. If you celebrate how awesome the PCs are and how much they can achieve and let them achieve those things ... and oppose them with larger problems that require solutions that they have to assemble ... well, it works really well.

Thanks, but I'm not disagreeing with you in principle. I was specifically referencing the example under discussion with CR.

As far as 5e combat goes, I still see a lot of Counterspell regardless of level, and that usually has little problem canceling cool abilities in combat.

 

[Shardstone]

Wheras for me, virtually all of my formative experiences with fantasy are western. Never did anything resembling anime until I was in my 30s.

I cannot imagine a 20th level Fantasy with a classic Western's level of conflict. My grandfather, who I grew up with, was addicted to them, so I saw like a hundred of these things growing up on repeat (and I know there were far, far, far more made). And while some of those stories as narratives work for ANY level, I've never seen a Western and thought to myself "That's a 20th level character."

Clint Eastwood is not taking a pistol, a drinking habit, and a bad attitude to the 9th level of Hell to shoot Asmodeus and take back the souls of an entire town. If he does, we're def in anime territory at that point.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I cannot imagine a 20th level Fantasy with a classic Western's level of conflict. My grandfather, who I grew up with, was addicted to them, so I saw like a hundred of these things growing up on repeat (and I know there were far, far, far more made). And while some of those stories as narratives work for ANY level, I've never seen a Western and thought to myself "That's a 20th level character."

Clint Eastwood is not taking a pistol, a drinking habit, and a bad attitude to the 9th level of Hell to shoot Asmodeus and take back the souls of an entire town. If he does, we're def in anime territory at that point.

I mean western-style fantasy (European and American), as opposed to Eastern (Asian and Asian-influenced).

 

[nevin]

I cannot imagine a 20th level Fantasy with a classic Western's level of conflict. My grandfather, who I grew up with, was addicted to them, so I saw like a hundred of these things growing up on repeat (and I know there were far, far, far more made). And while some of those stories as narratives work for ANY level, I've never seen a Western and thought to myself "That's a 20th level character."

Clint Eastwood is not taking a pistol, a drinking habit, and a bad attitude to the 9th level of Hell to shoot Asmodeus and take back the souls of an entire town.

I don't know about that. When one character is taking out entire towns full of villains the local authorities and the military couldn't handle. I"d say that's safely in the 10th to 15ish level range. Especially when consider there's not one spell cast in the hero's favor.

 

[Shardstone]

I mean western-style fantasy (European and American), as opposed to Eastern (Asian and Asian-influenced).

Oh lmao ok that makes way more sense.

But I mean, my foundational Fantasy book is the Silmarillion because I was a foolish child, and that book is jampacked with insane stuff. Elves fighting off 10 balrogs who are riding dragons or cutting down the evil god's army just to smite the naughty word out of the evil god -- these kinds of things are what I imagine at high levels.

Personally, if I ever get the chance to be a player in a party that is fighting 10 pit fiends riding different colored dragons, I'll finally realize my life's one true purpose.

 

[Shardstone]

I don't know about that. When one character is taking out entire towns full of villains the local authorities and the military couldn't handle. I"d say that's safely in the 10th to 15ish level range. Especially when consider there's not one spell cast in the hero's favor.

Yeah but these are like CR 1/8 - 1 dudes with 4-8 hit points each. With potions of healing (medicine from the sawbones) few short rests, NPCs to help, and lots of cover, a 3rd+ level Battle Master is eliminating that town.

 

[nevin]

Oh lmao ok that makes way more sense.

But I mean, my foundational Fantasy book is the Silmarillion because I was a foolish child, and that book is jampacked with insane stuff. Elves fighting off 10 balrogs who are riding dragons or cutting down the evil god's army just to smite the naughty word out of the evil god -- these kinds of things are what I imagine at high levels.

Personally, if I ever get the chance to be a player in a party that is fighting 10 pit fiends riding different colored dragons, I'll finally realize my life's one true purpose.

with most of the pantheon at their side and don't forget Elves are outerplanars in that book. It wasn't mortals fighting those balrogs it was the Gods and thier most powerful outerplanar followers. They don't die they pass on to the outer realms and are reborn. All that first age stuff is basically Lucifer waging war on heaven till he loses. The second age is a bit more like DND and then the 3rd is your nitty gritty magic poor game. none of the 3 ages really merge well into DND ruleset.

 

[Shardstone]

with most of the pantheon at their side and don't forget Elves are outerplanars in that book. It wasn't mortals fighting those balrogs it was the Gods and thier most powerful outerplanar followers. They don't die they pass on to the outer realms and are reborn. All that first age stuff is basically Lucifer waging war on heaven till he loses. The second age is a bit more like DND and then the 3rd is your nitty gritty magic poor game. none of the 3 ages really merge well into DND ruleset.

Man that's all whatever. I can pick up Theros and have all the PCs be a bunch of demigods RAW, or even just make up custom backgrounds and use the Lineage feature to do the same thing. The point is, when I personally imagine high level, that is what I imagine. I don't really care that you can't imagine that, because I don't think you'll ever run a game for me. But for me, when things are getting high level, I'm imagining me and my pals fighting 10 pit fiends riding ancient dragons and afterwards slapping the naughty word out of Evil God.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Oh lmao ok that makes way more sense.

But I mean, my foundational Fantasy book is the Silmarillion because I was a foolish child, and that book is jampacked with insane stuff. Elves fighting off 10 balrogs who are riding dragons or cutting down the evil god's army just to smite the naughty word out of the evil god -- these kinds of things are what I imagine at high levels.

Personally, if I ever get the chance to be a player in a party that is fighting 10 pit fiends riding different colored dragons, I'll finally realize my life's one true purpose.

Yeah... we're not allowed that.

Can I interest you in the same wolves from level 2 instead?

 

[nevin]

Yeah but these are like CR 1/8 - 1 dudes with 4-8 hit points each. With potions of healing (medicine from the sawbones) few short rests, NPCs to help, and lots of cover, a 3rd+ level Battle Master is eliminating that town.

We'll just have to disagree on that. no magic means no short rests. you get hurt your hurt till you heal.