D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[hawkeyefan]

Hard to say. But will it yield a game that can support multiple people working in a full time capacity and make a corporation pleased with its profitability? 5e kinda shows that’s possible. And that’s not a bad thing, particularly when it seems to be the biggest market D&D has captured to date.

Sure, but as I’ve already said, I’m looking at it purely from a design standpoint. I am aware that a better game will likely not appeal to as many people. We don’t have to look too far from examples of this in other forms of entertainment or other outlets.

Too much input from rando fans just doesn't seem Like a good way to produce something. It’s like focus groups taken a step further.

 

[Umbran]

Would pre-marital sex be the same without a nagging Catholic sense of shame and guilt?

Mod Note:
Can you leave religion (and your thoughts on sex) out of it in the future please? Thanks much.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That’s true. But the other side to that is, would it have sold as well if it was another company?

Probably not. Market visibility is a thing. But I suspect even if it sold a quarter as well, it still would have been considered an amazing success.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Of course, WotC's standards were and are the only ones that mattered.

Not when someone uses the phrase "not many people" liked it. It requires a selective frame of reference to say that, and I think its not too much to expect the qualification.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My point is, do you consider it a business error for an RPG designer to make anything other than 5e-compatible material?

Given looking at it on a purely business model, the answer is "it depends".

Basing a game on 5e, or doing something designed to work with 5e can, in a purely business sense, be the proper choice.

But the key words are "can be". Not every 3PP is going to do as well hooking its wagon to that star as doing their own thing, or being attached to another product that serves what they're doing better.

But if you're just trying to make money, its not the worst initial plan to make. I suspect in the absence of more information, its more likely to work out than not, assuming generic adventures or source books.

 

[Parmandur]

My point is, do you consider it a business error for an RPG designer to make anything other than 5e-compatible material?

I wouldn't, if my livelihood depended on it, even if I didn't care for 5E. But that's a good reason not to make one's livelihood depend on game writing.

 

[Parmandur]

Sure, but as I’ve already said, I’m looking at it purely from a design standpoint. I am aware that a better game will likely not appeal to as many people. We don’t have to look too far from examples of this in other forms of entertainment or other outlets.

You seem to take this as axiomatic, but it seems like a contradiction in terms to me
What is it that you think a game should be designed to do well if not appeal to people...?

 

[pemerton]

You seem to take this as axiomatic, but it seems like a contradiction in terms to me
What is it that you think a game should be designed to do well if not appeal to people...?

Well, @hawkeyefan referred to other forms of entertainment. I think there are many Marvel movies that are more popular than (say) Ingmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal. I'm pretty confident that Bergman's film is better, as a work of art, than any of those Marvel movies.

I'll leave it to hawkeyefan to say something about what makes a game better - elegance, or coherence of play experience, or challenge, or something(s) else - but the basic contention doesn't seem contradictory at all.

 

[hawkeyefan]

You seem to take this as axiomatic, but it seems like a contradiction in terms to me
What is it that you think a game should be designed to do well if not appeal to people...?

Enjoyment is subjective. Not everyone can be pleased. If I’m going to design a game, or anything really, I’m going to try and design it well. If I design a good game, then it will appeal to people.

What I’m not going to set out to do is please everyone.

I could rank all the variations of D&D with which I’m familiar, and then rank them according to how well designed they are. Then I can rank them according to how much I enjoyed them. Those rankings wouldn’t be the same, for a variety of reasons, many of which have little to nothing to do with design.

But I don’t claim that my enjoyment of a game makes it a better designed game.

I prefer when designers make the game they want to. When they have the vision to make decisions and go with what makes sense for the design of the game. Not when they set out to appease as many vocal folks as they can.

I think that leads to watered down games. The edges get softened, the risks are removed for safer decisions.

Bringing it back to 4e… I think as a game it’s clearly superior to 5e. Yet I’ve played much more 5e than 4e, for the reasons I’ve already stated. It’s a serviceable version of D&D. But there’s very little about it that stands out. Very little that’s unique to this edition that didn’t come from a prior one. Very little innovation.

I still have my old books from past editions, and those I don’t have are easily obtained these days. I can play any of those games. So if they’re going to make a new edition, make it new. Don’t just give me the same old stuff. I can play that if I wan to.

Give me a 4e instead of a 5e.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Well, @hawkeyefan referred to other forms of entertainment. I think there are many Marvel movies that are more popular than (say) Ingmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal. I'm pretty confident that Bergman's film is better, as a work of art, than any of those Marvel movies.

I'll leave it to hawkeyefan to say something about what makes a game better - elegance, or coherence of play experience, or challenge, or something(s) else - but the basic contention doesn't seem contradictory at all.

Precisely! In the US, over the past few years, a couple of the most popular television shows are The Kardashians and The Masked Singer.

If I’m going to make a TV show, I’m gonna try and make The Wire or Deadwood, not The Masked Friggin Singer. I don’t care how it plays to key demographics.

As for games, you touched on a few I’ve mentioned. Coherence of the play experience, ease of play, elegance… all of those for sure. Innovation. Dynamic mechanics. How manageable it is to run the game. That was my big thing with 4e… it was amazingly easy to run. GMing was smooth and the presentation was great, and the tools for encounter building made sense and worked.

The game (mostly) works as intended. 5e is mushy. It doesn’t really work until the individual play group (or very likely, just the DM) decides how it works. It’s vague in many spots, some of which are surprisingly fundamental… it leaves too much open to interpretation. Some folks are happy with this. And that’s fine of they prefer to fill in those blanks themselves… but from a design standpoint, it’s incomplete.

It’s not even really arguable, I’d say.