D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Parmandur]

But a cookbook isn't going to leave a bunch of stuff up to you. A recipe is a set of specific instructions. You don't get to a certain point in a recipe and then it says "Ah, you know what? Use some herbs, whatever amount you think it good and you got it from here."

That is really, really not true of cookbooks. Even good cookbooks. And mixing, matching, and adjusting are definitely part of cooking, even with the suggestions in a cookbook.

Same with a DIY game like D&D: WotC sells tools that people use to make their fun, it is not a pre-packaged experience in the control of an aueter like a TV show or a movie.

So designing checkers and designing D&D is the same job? They have to worry about the same things? Namely, producing fun?

No... they have different concerns. They have to do different things. And they can do them well... as checkers does... or they can do them poorly.

I mean, checkers is already a complete game at this point, but...yes. designing for fun is what game design is. The more fun the game provides, and to the widest range of people, is what constitutes good theological design for a game.

It's a shame that they can't do better with so much.

Better at achieving what end...? It's still really not clear to me what good game design can consist in other than making ad many people as possible happy.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I suppose, but unlike with a film, I am not sure what the criteria for judgement besides play and fun to as many people as possible could even be.

Serving the purpose of a subset better? Number of people who get value isn't the only issue; amount of value also matters.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Not really sure what there is to argue? 5E is an incredibly flexible tool for DIY gaming, yes.

Only if you find the core mechanics desirable and serving your purpose in the first place. I can't imagine a campaign I'd be interested in running where 5e would be my first (or likely even fifth) choice.

 

[Parmandur]

Serving the purpose of a subset better? Number of people who get value isn't the only issue; amount of value also matters.

Sure...?

But as has been established in this thread already, they cannot please everyone all the time.

 

[Parmandur]

Only if you find the core mechanics desirable and serving your purpose in the first place. I can't imagine a campaign I'd be interested in running where 5e would be my first (or likely even fifth) choice.

shrug

Personally I'm a fan of how they can be used to improv action resolution with little to no prep while tipsy on alcohol, while still having some mathematical heft.

I can see the use for other games (Powered by the Apocalypse and Call of Cthulu are great), but for heroic fantasy it does everything I need it to and with ablomb.

 

[Echohawk]

I assume they care about making money more than anything else, if for no other reason than that they have shareholders that demand it. All the other things they do, including how they conduct their surveys and what they do with the results, are in service to that goal. I see no evidence that I am wrong in this, at least since they were purchased by Hasbro.

This may be true, but it is a different claim to what you said previously.

To be fair, since by far the most important metric to WotC for the surveys success is sales

Here you are claiming that the metric WotC uses for the success of their surveys is sales. That is not the same as saying "everything WotC does is with goal of increasing sales". A "metric" is a measurement. There is no way to measure the impact that a survey done in 2022/2023 has on sales of a product in 2024. Whatever they may be, WotC's metrics for a successful survey are not future sales.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sure...?

But as has been established in this thread already, they cannot please everyone all the time.

I was answering your question. The criteria can, very much, not be about including as many people as possible getting value out of it; it can be giving a larger amount of value to a subset. Breadth isn't the only approach; depth may not make as much money, but its still a valid design criterion when maximum profit isn't the only issue.

(Note: I am not talking about WOTC here).

 

[Thomas Shey]

shrug

Personally I'm a fan of how they can be used to improv action resolution with little to no prep while tipsy on alcohol, while still having some mathematical heft.

I can see the use for other games (Powered by the Apocalypse and Call of Cthulu are great), but for heroic fantasy it does everything I need it to and with ablomb.

I could go into why it wouldn't for me, but it'd just be a repeat about why D&D-circle games aren't my favorite, and D&D 5e isn't even particularly high up for me within that. Suffice that I don't consider levels, classes, level elevating hit points or a number of other things the best way to generically do things even within heroic fantasy.

 

[Parmandur]

I was answering your question. The criteria can, very much, not be about including as many people as possible getting value out of it; it can be giving a larger amount of value to a subset. Breadth isn't the only approach; depth may not make as much money, but its still a valid design criterion when maximum profit isn't the only issue.

(Note: I am not talking about WOTC here).

Sure, and for a hobbyist making a game for just friends and family does make sense. But frankly not wanting to make as appealing a game as possible just seems like...bad design to me? The equivalent of making Plan 9 from Outer Space or something.

 

[Parmandur]

I could go into why it wouldn't for me, but it'd just be a repeat about why D&D-circle games aren't my favorite, and D&D 5e isn't even particularly high up for me within that. Suffice that I don't consider levels, classes, level elevating hit points or a number of other things the best way to generically do things even within heroic fantasy.

Well, as has been established, "best" is subjective. The metric is: do users by and large like those things? Do they spark joy? If yes, then using them is good game design.