D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Lanefan]

I can't see any argument in which 5e is that design. There is nothing it does better than a more focused game could do, except be "good enough" for the most people.

Thing is, being "good enough for the most people" in fact defines it as being good enough, from both a marketing perspective (good for the company) and an ease-of-access perspective (good for attracting new people into the hobby).

I mean, the people posting in this thread could sit down and collectively design* "the perfect RPG"; but if nobody ever played it, what would be the point?

* - a process that would doubtless require a lot of time and a vast amount of beer.

 

[Parmandur]

Not if the specialty things do the job they're designed for better than the widely-useful thing. Specialists exist for a reason.

Sure, which us why other games like Call of cthulu have a place.

Or more close to 5E, I like DCC because it provides a particular genre experience that is slightly outside the more popular heroic fantasybtropes of 5E.

But both CoC and DCC are designed to br as fun as possible for people interested in the topic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It certainly seems a Quixotic quest unless it is better designed to appeal and be fun, honestly.

Yeah, but then thebquestionnis: better designed to do what? Fun for people is what a game is: how is being more fun not identical with better design...? I am honest to God serious here, I don't see what other criteria you can apply to a game.

But a game can both serve more people and serve them more deeply. They are not in opposition logically.

What game does this? If your claim is that it's 5e, in what ways does it serve anyone more deeply?

 

[Parmandur]

What game does this? If your claim is that it's 5e, in what ways does it serve anyone more deeply?

Yes, 5E is a game that gives a lot of people very deep enjoyment. Moat people do not begrudgingly play it, because it is designed to scratch the itch throughly for most people.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, which us why other games like Call of cthulu have a place.

Or more close to 5E, I like DCC because it provides a particular genre experience that is slightly outside the more popular heroic fantasybtropes of 5E.

But both CoC and DCC are designed to br as fun as possible for people interested in the topic.

But DCC breaks with your philosophy, in that its a fantasy RPG that isn't 5e, and therefore, according to your theory, is bad design. The folks at Goodman Games (and everyone else who makes non-5e fantasy games) should abandon those projects and re-focus all their efforts on 5e-compatible material, right? What's the difference?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Experience suggests that it is definitely possible to both please huge numbers of people, and to do so deeply. Quality versus popularity is not a sliding scale, anymore than they are necessarily correlated.

This dodged my point.

People in some cases want things that are actively oppositional. By serving some better you serve others worse, and in some cases by serving some at all you do not serve others at all.

This makes it fundamentally impossible for one size to fit all.

And the way to get there? Do deep dive research about what people by and large like and want...which WotC has been doing for over a decade now, and continues to do. And what 4E did not do at all.

And this dodged it too. "By and large." By and large intrinsically discards some people. Possibly a large number. It pursues the majority as the overriding virtue.

 

[Lanefan]

Yes, 5E is a game that gives a lot of people very deep enjoyment. Moat people do not begrudgingly play it, because it is designed to scratch the itch throughly for most people.

That seems a bit rich.

I'm no fan of 5e as written, nor of WotC who I think have all along been rather poor custodians of the game as a whole; but I'm quite willing to admit that with 5e they've stumbled on to something that works well enough for a lot of people. Good for them.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Disagree.

If I can buy one widely-useful thing to do jobs for which I'd otherwise have to buy (and then carry around) five specialty things, that feature alone makes the widely-useful thing about five times better.

And yet, all kinds of people including most workmen have toolkits, not one all purpose tool.

 

[Thomas Shey]

They don't have to serve everyone, as long as they can serve as many as possible. And plenty of people love 5E rather than tolerate it.

Everyone, no. Most people? Seems very doable.

So, basically a game that serves a subset much better is just inferior because its not targeting the majority?

Thanks for making that clear.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, 5E is a game that gives a lot of people very deep enjoyment. Moat people do not begrudgingly play it, because it is designed to scratch the itch throughly for most people.

As I mentioned above, do all those people know about other fantasy RPGs and choose to play 5e instead, because it's their favorite and serves them best? If not, then yes they are playing it "begrudgingly" to some degree. Or they're playing in ignorance of other options.