D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[pemerton]

First off, the game has never gone into specific details on injuries e.g. evisceration, maiming, etc. Whether or not it should is a different discussion; for now we just have to take it at face value that these things aren't detailed.

My point is that I can infer, from the fact that most 1st or 2nd level PCs can recover from any non-fatal injury in a week or two of rest, that none of those non-fatal injuries is evisceration, maiming or even serious damage to joints.

Which puts a pretty hard cap on how much wounding is occurring when a PC loses hit points.

Second, the recovery rate of only 1 h.p. a day doesn't square with Gygax's explanation where he says hit points are a combination of luck, fatigue, injury, and so forth; as fatigue can be dispelled fairly quickly and luck, well, is just luck

How long does it take to regain the favour of the gods?

But anyway, it's pretty clear that Gygax didn't set the recovery time having an eye on realism. He set it in such a way that, basically, resting takes you out of this week's dungeon expedition. The rules for recovery times need to be read in concert with his rules for how to handle time.

Then, hit points are actual damage, but in an odd probabilistic sense.

As per the quote I posted upthread, in his PHB Gygax refers to "potential" damage.

hit point healing should not exist. That it does is a conceit of the game. If one in ten strikes results in debilitating damage, that five strikes occurred but missed should not be erasable.

That depends. If what makes one strike in ten debilitating is that a combatant gradually gets worn down, then restoring their resolve and vigour will enable them to "erase" the five strikes that missed.

 

[pemerton]

Non-magical ranged healing? Full recovery on an overnight rest?

Because 4e agrees with you that getting back your luck and resolve doesn't take very long. And of course a friend can urge you one, thus helping you recover said luck and resolve (this is 4e's non-magical ranged healing).

 

[Micah Sweet]

@Reynard, your post just upthread is consistent with what Gygax says in his rulebooks, and with the approach taken by 4e D&D.

What "damage on a miss" means is that this attack always wears its target down at least a bit. The attacker is unrelenting.

What if such an attack reduces hit points to zero?

 

[Lanefan]

What if such an attack reduces hit points to zero?

Someone will probably correct me here, but I seem to recall DoaM couldn't take you below 1 h.p.

 

[pemerton]

Someone will probably correct me here, but I seem to recall DoaM couldn't take you below 1 h.p.

You're wrong about that.

What if such an attack reduces hit points to zero?

The unrelenting attack caused the opponent to swoon, collapse, be so overborne they were run through, whatever works in the context of the fiction.

I mean, if the fighter declares Reaping Strike against a foe with N hp left, where N <= the damage dealt on a miss, then that foe has no chance of withstanding the assault. The GM can just declare "You cut your foe down!"

 

[Alzrius]

Someone will probably correct me here, but I seem to recall DoaM couldn't take you below 1 h.p.

I think you're thinking of the special exception that's made for minion creatures. From the DMG, p. 55:

A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) destroys a minion. If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, however, it takes no damage.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You're wrong about that.

The unrelenting attack caused the opponent to swoon, collapse, be so overborne they were run through, whatever works in the context of the fiction.

I mean, if the fighter declares Reaping Strike against a foe with N hp left, where N <= the damage dealt on a miss, then that foe has no chance of withstanding the assault. The GM can just declare "You cut your foe down!"

Seems unfair to have their defense be meaningless in that situation.

 

[tomBitonti]

My point is that I can infer, from the fact that most 1st or 2nd level PCs can recover from any non-fatal injury in a week or two of rest, that none of those non-fatal injuries is evisceration, maiming or even serious damage to joints.

Which puts a pretty hard cap on how much wounding is occurring when a PC loses hit points.

How long does it take to regain the favour of the gods?

But anyway, it's pretty clear that Gygax didn't set the recovery time having an eye on realism. He set it in such a way that, basically, resting takes you out of this week's dungeon expedition. The rules for recovery times need to be read in concert with his rules for how to handle time.

As per the quote I posted upthread, in his PHB Gygax refers to "potential" damage.

That depends. If what makes one strike in ten debilitating is that a combatant gradually gets worn down, then restoring their resolve and vigour will enable them to "erase" the five strikes that missed.

Well, except that hp are rather a poor mechanism for anything like exhaustion, the accumulation of small wounds, morale, or divine favor. They strip away all of the flavor of that, so much that I wonder if that consideration was anything but a poor attempt to rationalize them, added after their invention. D&D doesn’t really try to represent any of these issue, except in very peripheral ways.

The first fight gave him a bit of a thrill. Heart pumping, he had been ready to lay into his opponents.

The second fight was more of a steady business. They defeated their foes in a workmanlike fashion. But already, injuries hampered their effort.

The third fight was nearly a rout. Neils had fallen and only the mad outrage of his brother had saved them.

And yet a fourth fight was brewing, while his sword was as a leaden weight, and he could barely keep his legs from stumbling, so tired they were. He and the others shuffled forward, all of them silent and downcast. Those without injury were few. Those believing they would survive this next bout were fewer still.

Grimly, they advanced. Their relentless foe gave them no respite.

I do suppose you can still have magical healing. Except, the sense of it is off. A finally debilitating strike I can envision. Paying forward magical healing to knit that grievous injury doesn’t sit as well.

I think it’s better to not push the meaning of these things too hard. D&D is a simple game. One is better to have all of their hit points. They are worse off when they lose hit points. There is magic that can make them better.

TomB

 

[pemerton]

Seems unfair to have their defense be meaningless in that situation.

Why is it unfair for a fighter to have an auto-kill a foe who is reduced to low hp feature?

I mean, a key maxim of 5e D&D is only roll when there's a chance of failure. For this implacable fighter, confronting such a demoralised and set-upon foe, there is no chance of failure!

 

[Red Castle]

Concerning Damage on a Miss, it’s basically the same thing as half damage if you succeed your saving throw. It’s just that instead of the defender rolling a saving throw to see if he gets full or half damage, it’s the attacker rolling against the defense to see if he do full damage or the damage on a miss.

It’s just as unfair to be killed by a damage on a miss than by a fireball even if you succeed at your saving throw.