D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[MockingBird]

Damage on a miss from blast type spells I can get behind. It loses me with a weapon attack though.

 

[tomBitonti]

Concerning Damage on a Miss, it’s basically the same thing as half damage if you succeed your saving throw. It’s just that instead of the defender rolling a saving throw to see if he gets full or half damage, it’s the attacker rolling against the defense to see if he do full damage or the damage on a miss.

It’s just as unfair to be killed by a damage on a miss than by a fireball even if you succeed at your saving throw.

Damage on a miss seems more palatable when there there is a resource other than hit points which was expended that made the attack miss. Most commonly, deflection (shield block or parry) or dodge. Say, if one could have an extra reaction at a cost of stamina points. If hit points include such resources, then one ought to be able to trade hit points for a bonus action. I guess in 4E, giving up a healing surge seems to be the way to do this. (Edit: Perhaps healing surges could have better called action surges, with just one application being to recover hit points.)

Except, most folks seem rather disinclined to spend hit points this way. Which is to say, folks aren’t treating hit points as anything except a measure of physical health.

TomB

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Damage on a miss from blast type spells I can get behind. It loses me with a weapon attack though.

They punch a wall so hard that the blastwave catches the opponent, what's the problem.

 

[Hussar]

Why is it unfair for a fighter to have an auto-kill a foe who is reduced to low hp feature?

I mean, a key maxim of 5e D&D is only roll when there's a chance of failure. For this implacable fighter, confronting such a demoralised and set-upon foe, there is no chance of failure!

No no no.

You misunderstand.

Only casters are allowed to do that. After all, if you drop a fireball on orcs, whether they save or not, they just die. Defenses? Saving throws? Don't matter. Faced with an implacable caster, there is no chance of failure.

But non-casters? Absolutely not. They must NEVER be allowed anything like that.

 

[Lanefan]

No no no.

You misunderstand.

Only casters are allowed to do that. After all, if you drop a fireball on orcs, whether they save or not, they just die. Defenses? Saving throws? Don't matter. Faced with an implacable caster, there is no chance of failure.

But non-casters? Absolutely not. They must NEVER be allowed anything like that.

You're of course ignoring the flip side: the caster only gets to drop a few fireballs a day before running out of steam while the warrior can keep going till the cows come home, as long as her health holds out. By the end of the day they've each probably knocked off as many Orcs as the other.

That said, I don't disagree that casters have it far too easy. I've houseruled in a few fixes (they have to roll to aim their AoE placements, for one thing, and can fumble on that roll) but I'd sure like to see the official game follow suit.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No no no.

You misunderstand.

Only casters are allowed to do that. After all, if you drop a fireball on orcs, whether they save or not, they just die. Defenses? Saving throws? Don't matter. Faced with an implacable caster, there is no chance of failure.

But non-casters? Absolutely not. They must NEVER be allowed anything like that.

You want to throw a grenade, or a molotov cocktail, or a flamethrower? Those are all fine. No casting needed.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm of the opinion that things like the inherent hostility of the elemental planes in earlier editions of the game are a feature, rather than a bug. Those planes being hard to adventure in is how you know that they're meant for higher-level groups, and so require greater preparations, which are in and of themselves adventure fodder. Do you need to craft certain magic items to be able to survive on the Plane of Fire? Better go adventuring so that you can get the ingredients you need in order to craft them! Is there a wizard in town with a spell you'll need for the process? You better believe that he has a quest he wants you to fulfill in exchange for letting you learn it!

Not everything should be available at the lower-levels or mid-levels. The planes as high-level adventuring grounds (at least in part; you can adventure in the Outlands (aka Concordant Opposition) or similar not-too-hostile planes just fine) is an idea that I think works very well, because they both showcase what you're able to do as higher-level characters, but also because just going there can be a series of adventures in-and-of themselves.

Sorry to resurrect a post from August, but I was inspired to address this notion. I think this is a great way to play, and it’s something I’ve grown more interested in the more I’ve DMed. But, I think that for at least some players, this kind of play can quickly end up feeling like the majority of the gameplay is a series of interruptions to the thing you actually want to be doing. It can be hard to get invested in the adventure you’re on when you’re doing it so that you can get a thing you need before you can go on a different more-interesting-seeming adventure. I think when people say (as I have often done myself) that 4e’s worldbuilding was designed around being gamable (or that it was “built to be played”), what they’re trying to get at is that it was actively designed to cut out this “interruption to the thing you’d rather be doing” type of gameplay. Which was great for the people who had that particular issue, but was probably disappointing for people who enjoyed the structure you describes here of preparing for a high-level adventure being an impetus for several low-to-mid-level adventures.

 

[James Gasik]

Why is it unfair for a fighter to have an auto-kill a foe who is reduced to low hp feature?

I mean, a key maxim of 5e D&D is only roll when there's a chance of failure. For this implacable fighter, confronting such a demoralised and set-upon foe, there is no chance of failure!

I remember a lot of eye-popping moments with a 4e Ninja at low levels, who insta-killed anything they hit with low hit points. As they rose in level, however, this feature scaled horribly and stopped being particularly noteworthy.

 

[James Gasik]

Damage on a miss from blast type spells I can get behind. It loses me with a weapon attack though.

Tell that to the designers of Lightning Arrow and Ice Knife, lol.

 

[Hussar]

You're of course ignoring the flip side: the caster only gets to drop a few fireballs a day before running out of steam while the warrior can keep going till the cows come home, as long as her health holds out. By the end of the day they've each probably knocked off as many Orcs as the other.

That said, I don't disagree that casters have it far too easy. I've houseruled in a few fixes (they have to roll to aim their AoE placements, for one thing, and can fumble on that roll) but I'd sure like to see the official game follow suit.

I'm not ignoring anything. Remember, damage on a miss is typically only a couple of points. I don't think there's any damage on a miss effects that dealt more than about 5 points of damage. So, again, it's not like it's this massive advantage for the fighter. Because, that wizard is potentially killing OGRES automatically. Never mind orcs or kobolds.

And, if we're going to stick with 4th or 5th edition, where orcs 15 hp (5e) or considerably more in 4e, it's not like any of these damage on a miss effects are outright killing anything. You need to hit that orc a few times and THEN you get to automatically kill.

See, this gets back to presentation. It's totally believable when you think about it. The big honking fighter smacks the orc a few times, then his last attack drops the orc. The only thing is, that last attack doesn't need to be rolled. It still happens. The fighter still has to use an action to attack. It's just considered an automatic success.

But we absolutely cannot do this with fighters. Ohhh no. That baddy, even though you've knocked it down to 1 HP must absolutely be hit before you can drop it. Doesn't matter that you are the greatest swordsman in the land. You MUST roll every attack.



It's ludicrous.