D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

Oh please...

You can scoff all you like but you can see it in this thread.

No matter what, if something has 4e cooties, it must be bad. Never minding that the exact same stuff appears in 5e. That’s fine. It’s never drawing from 4e. It’s drawing from any source other than 4e.

There are all sorts of things you can criticize 4e for. Combats being too long. Too fiddly. Very poor presentation of so many things.

But as soon as we no longer point to 4e? All those things are perfectly fine.
 

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You can scoff all you like but you can see it in this thread.

No matter what, if something has 4e cooties, it must be bad. Never minding that the exact same stuff appears in 5e. That’s fine. It’s never drawing from 4e. It’s drawing from any source other than 4e.

There are all sorts of things you can criticize 4e for. Combats being too long. Too fiddly. Very poor presentation of so many things.

But as soon as we no longer point to 4e? All those things are perfectly fine.
Folks who think very highly of 4E rip apart all other editions constantly here. Nearly every thread. 🤷‍♂️
 

Folks who think very highly of 4E rip apart all other editions constantly here. Nearly every thread. 🤷‍♂️

Really? 5e is being described as not even an rpg? Not really DnD? A glorified war game? I must have missed the sub forum ghettos where discussing 5e got banished because of the never ending edition warring.

I’m looking at the 5e forum and the One DnD forums pretty regularly. I cannot recall a single time 4e fans are ripping 5e apart.

I certainly see lots of other edition fans doing that though.

Nearly every thread you say. Huh.
 

Really? 5e is being described as not even an rpg? Not really DnD? A glorified war game? I must have missed the sub forum ghettos where discussing 5e got banished because of the never ending edition warring.

I’m looking at the 5e forum and the One DnD forums pretty regularly. I cannot recall a single time 4e fans are ripping 5e apart.

I certainly see lots of other edition fans doing that though.

Nearly every thread you say. Huh.
“Apology edition” “accidentally successful” on and on yeah. It’s edition warring and completely tolerated. Sorry there is no victim sweepstakes here, it’s simply what goes around comes around.
 

“Apology edition” “accidentally successful” on and on yeah. It’s edition warring and completely tolerated. Sorry there is no victim sweepstakes here, it’s simply what goes around comes around.
Yeah I gotta say I cringe every time I hear 5e called "the apologie edition". Or how Crit Roll or some TV shoes saved 5e even though those shows either used 4e or earlier game materials. 5e isn't good enough to stand on its own. Though...
 

Yeah I gotta say I cringe every time I hear 5e called "the apologie edition". Or how Crit Roll or some TV shoes saved 5e even though those shows either used 4e or earlier game materials. 5e isn't good enough to stand on its own. Though...
My point wasn’t to kick off a challenge of which edition fans get it worse. My point was there are a lot of pretentious takes in many directions here at EN world. It’s the reason I hang here. Well, not the folks being dinks to each other part, but that diverse and disparate takes happen here together while being relatively civil. EN world will always lean in favor of current D&D, but it has folks of many minds and that makes it unique.
 

Yeah I gotta say I cringe every time I hear 5e called "the apologie edition". Or how Crit Roll or some TV shoes saved 5e even though those shows either used 4e or earlier game materials. 5e isn't good enough to stand on its own. Though...
A former member of my gaming group would only ever refer to 5E as "D&D: the Apology." I'm not actually sure that the colon was there, though; he might have been riffing off of World of Darkness titles as much as Magic: the Gathering.
 

My point wasn’t to kick off a challenge of which edition fans get it worse. My point was there are a lot of pretentious takes in many directions here at EN world. It’s the reason I hang here. Well, not the folks being dinks to each other part, but that diverse and disparate takes happen here together while being relatively civil. EN world will always lean in favor of current D&D, but it has folks of many minds and that makes it unique.
Y'know what? That's fair. 👍
 

Going back to the very first post:

the AD&D 1st Edition Players Handbook sold 1.5 million copies....

... the 4E PHB sold far less than the 3E PHBs.

I'm highly suspicious of statistics that are provided with less than a very very careful analysis. Most of what I get from this is that 4E sold less than 3E, and was expected to do better. This gives a basis to ask two questions:

(1) Why did 4E sell less well than 3E?

(2) Why did 4E sell less well than was expected? (Equivalently: Why was 4E expected to sell more than 3E?)

The various reasons that I've heard are a combination of:

(1) The game was changed too much. That is not to say that 4E isn't a great edition, only that it had too many changes to satisfy a relatively entrenched 3E D&D market.

(2) (NOT the same as (1).) 4E doesn't hit the "sweet spot" of what most D&D players are looking for.

(3) The sales pitch was offensive: "Y'all playing 3E having been playing D&D wrong. You are idiots if you don't switch to 4E."

(4) There were expectations that the high returns of Magic: The Gathering could be replicated with a combination of an update to the game plus the release of collectable miniatures plus (reasonably) high expectations of an (unreasonably unready) subscription based digital platform.

(5) An underappreciation for the hesitancy of the D&D market to buy a new edition following the quick release of 3.5E on top of 3E.

(6) An underappreciation of the impact of the license change.

Maybe:

(7) The market was just smaller. The D&D market may have been saturated to the point that a new edition just didn't have the same available market.

For (1), I think it's important to distinguish analyses of how the game was different from analyses of how these differences were too much for the then current 3E market. For (1), there are cross-overs to other points: Certain changes might have been more palatable if presented with better messaging.

For (2), this shows up in various factors, for example, having the game being strongly coupled to the use of miniatures. Or, power effects being too abstract. Or, there not being enough stuff that is interesting to read in monster books. Then: 4E was a great game, just not the game enough players wanted.

Here, I want to emphasis that 4E does very well satisfy many players. The point is that it doesn't satisfy enough D&D players. (This synergizes with the game changing quite a bit and with the very poor sales pitch.)

I don't have anything more to say about (3).

For (7), if we compare 3E, 4E, and 5E, 3E was released after a long drought of products; 4E much less so; 5E did have Pathfinder underfoot, but had a longer drought than 4E, if you consider 5E being a successor to 3E, not to 4E.

As for internal issues, without a way of telling whether the turmoil was more or less what regularly happens, there is no way to tell how the final product was affected. I can hypothesize, but don't have any way to test my hypotheses:

(1) The turmoil was exceptionally high, leading (one way or another) to many poor decisions.

(2) The turmoil was more or less what typically happens. Any failures are more attributable to other matters.

Alternatively:

(1') There was a failure of WotC leadership to manage issues in the presence of not too exceptional turmoil.

This places the emphasis on leadership and decision making. That seems a better focus than on the turmoil. Then, the problem was not the turmoil -- the problem was the failure of leadership and decision making in the presence of turmoil.

I think the failure of the electronic product should be looked at as a separate issue. There are a lot of additional factors which are involved. My best sense is that the company was not ready yet to create a product and product ecosystem of the scale which was being attempted.

TomB
 

I'm highly suspicious of statistics that are provided with less than a very very careful analysis. Most of what I get from this is that 4E sold less than 3E, and was expected to do better. This gives a basis to ask two questions:

(1) Why did 4E sell less well than 3E?

(2) Why did 4E sell less well than was expected? (Equivalently: Why was 4E expected to sell more than 3E?)
IMO, all of the subsequent reasons you listed played a part. There's no one silver bullet to explain why people bounced off of 4e. There were multiple issues, any one of which might have been possible to mitigate, but which altogether hindered 4e like a 4e monster festooned with conditions.

To whit, one reason that I don't think has been examined very much was that 4e was not blessed with a viable on-ramp. This had been called out by Mearls either before or during the D&D Next playtest. Their market research showed that many people bought the 4e Starter Sets, but did not move on to buying the PHB. That was part of the impetus for Essentials (with a revised Starter Set), as well as a design goal for D&D Next.

The original "Starter Set" was Keep on the Shadowfell. It contained quickstart rules for players, the adventure book for DMs, pregens, and battlemaps. What did it not have? Dice or tokens. And the quickstart rules devoted half a page (1 column) to discussing what a RPG was before then diving into 15 pages of rule explanations. I'm not saying that one couldn't pick this up without any RPG experience and get into D&D. I'm sure there are some who did. But they didn't make it easy. KotS and the quickstart rules are rather obviously intended to get already active D&D players quickly up and playing 4e.

The original "blue box" starter set is, IMO, not much of an improvement. The player's booklet is essentially the same quickstart rules as above, but at least time they include dice and tokens. The DM's booklet comes with all the necessary rules for DMs to build encounters. But the "introductory adventure" consists of...three dungeon encounters. None of which utilize the Skill Challenge rules. So you're not inspiring players, and not really giving them a taste of what a role-playing game can be. You're basically just hoping that they get hooked by the combat rules.

The "red box" starter set is a much better attempt. Dice, tokens, maps, power cards. You've got the solo tutorial, which is excellent. Unlike Mentzer Basic, you can choose from any of the major classes, and it gets across the rules the player needs to know while also getting them into character. All the rules nitty-gritty is in the DM's booklet, along with a proper introductory adventure. All leading to either the Essentials books or the original PHB(s). I think if 4e had led with this, it would have had a much better time. Alas, it was released in September of 2010. In January of 2012, a mere 15 months later, D&D Next was announced.
 

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