D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Spell Discussion

Yeah. Distinction without difference. All of the rules in the PHB are guidelines.
So you take every suggestion anyone gives you as a rule you have to follow? I certainly don't. It's a distinction with a significant difference.
If I want to ban fighters or make all rolls on 3d6, I can.
Sure, but you have to house rule to do so, which removes what you do from any discussion about what the game says happens(RAW). No guideline is RAW and applies to no RAW discussions. All RAW is RAW and applies to all RAW discussions.
 

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Sure, but you have to house rule to do so, which removes what you do from any discussion about what the game says to do(RAW). No guideline is RAW and applies to no RAW discussions. All RAW is RAW and applies to all RAW discussions.
right but the problem is we don't understand why you are making that specific distinction. What has told you that text I find in the MM is a guideline that can be ignored at a whim, but the PHB contains rules that must be "houseruled" to be changed.

What has declared the PH as RAW and the MM as an optional guideline?
 

right but the problem is we don't understand why you are making that specific distinction. What has told you that text I find in the MM is a guideline that can be ignored at a whim, but the PHB contains rules that must be "houseruled" to be changed.
Honestly, I don't even remember anymore. Pages and pages ago someone said something where the distinction made a difference. I've since completely lost the original reason for the debate. :oops:
What has declared the PH as RAW and the MM as an optional guideline?
The DMG. All the rules needed to play the game are in the PHB. The DMG explicitly calls itself guidelines. And the MM is called out as monsters to use.
 

So reading the PHB, I think I can understand what Maxperson is saying.

The PHB says it contains "everything you need to play the game". This isn't 100% accurate, but by and large, you can't really play 5e without the PHB. So while "the PHB is RAW" isn't the way I'd articulate this point, it is accurate to say "the PHB rules are vital". Most of what you find in the other books is not, and a DM could even "wing it" if they don't have the DMG rules on hand.

And really, nobody reads the DMG anyways, amirite?

You could play without the Monster Manual as well. I think you'd be better off doing so than not, but you could.

EDIT: Maxperson is right, the DMG is very careful not to use the word "rules" with regards to it's content, for the most part. Yes, things like breaking objects or madness are called rules, but if you look closely, even the section "Master of Rules" says it's more about helping you use the rules in the PHB than presenting new ones.

Now, much of what's in the DMG I would certainly call rules, by any definition, but it appears that WotC are the ones who want to make this distinction.
 

Quick off the cuff review of the spells we've seen in the playtest. I'd be curious to hear if people find each of these spells buffed, nerfed, or merely neutrally clarified. Obviously some of these were already nixed. I was actually surprised to see just how many had been in the playtests:

Glimmering Smite
Banishing Smite
Blinding Smite
Searing Smite
Shining Smite
Staggering Smite
Thunderous Smite
Wrathful Smite

Create Spell
Memorize Spell
Modify Spell
Scribe Spell

Eldritch Blast
Hex
Pact Familiar
Pack Weapon
Arcane Eruption
Book of Shadows
Chaos Bolt
Sorcerous Burst
Sorcerous Vitality
Sorcery Incarnate

Conjure Barrage
Conjure Volley
Divine Smite
Elementalism
Hunter's Mark

Barkskin
Find Familiar
Find Steed
Power Word Heal
Power Word Kill
Counterspell
Jump

Vicious Mockery
Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Chill Touch
Friends
Poison Spray
Produce Flame
Shillelagh
Shocking Grasp
Spare the Dying
True Strike

Conjure Animals
Conjure Celestial
Conjure Elemental
Conjure Fey
Conjure Minor Elementals
Conjure Woodland Beings
Fount of Moonlight
Healing Word
Mass Cure Wounds
Mass Healing Word
Power Word Fortify
Starry Wisp
 
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So reading the PHB, I think I can understand what Maxperson is saying.

The PHB says it contains "everything you need to play the game". This isn't 100% accurate, but by and large, you can't really play 5e without the PHB. So while "the PHB is RAW" isn't the way I'd articulate this point, it is accurate to say "the PHB rules are vital". Most of what you find in the other books is not, and a DM could even "wing it" if they don't have the DMG rules on hand.

And really, nobody reads the DMG anyways, amirite?

You could play without the Monster Manual as well. I think you'd be better off doing so than not, but you could.

EDIT: Maxperson is right, the DMG is very careful not to use the word "rules" with regards to it's content, for the most part. Yes, things like breaking objects or madness are called rules, but if you look closely, even the section "Master of Rules" says it's more about helping you use the rules in the PHB than presenting new ones.

Now, much of what's in the DMG I would certainly call rules, by any definition, but it appears that WotC are the ones who want to make this distinction.
I think what WotC was/is going for with the PHB/DMG similar to the following. The PHB would be the rules to chess, while the DMG would be the strategems and gambits, etc. that allow the person using the rules to use them in a manner that better suits them and is more effective.
 

I think what WotC was/is going for with the PHB/DMG similar to the following. The PHB would be the rules to chess, while the DMG would be the strategems and gambits, etc. that allow the person using the rules to use them in a manner that better suits them and is more effective.
That and the odds and ends that didn't make it into the PHB for space reasons or oversight, and things that really didn't fit there. You know, like the DMG for every edition.
 

Quick off the cuff review of the spells we've seen in the playtest. I'd be curious to hear if people find each of these spells buffed, nerfed, or merely neutrally clarified. Obviously some of these were already nixed. I was actually surprised to see just how many had been in the playtests:

Glimmering Smite
Banishing Smite
Blinding Smite
Searing Smite
Shining Smite
Staggering Smite
Thunderous Smite
Wrathful Smite
I am not going to go through these in detail, but just from memory since we do not really know how the changes to the class chasis affect these and the other spells. Plus even if they are kept I would expect some tuining in the final version. The changes from 3 lists to class spell list will also have an effect.
However, regarding the above, I was overall in favour since I think that they fitted into the paladin's action economy better than their previous versions.

Create Spell
Memorize Spell
Modify Spell
Scribe Spell
These are gone.
Eldritch Blast
Hex
Pact Familiar
Pack Weapon
Arcane Eruption
Book of Shadows
Chaos Bolt
Sorcerous Burst
Sorcerous Vitality
Sorcery Incarnate
This is more of a mixed bag and some had more than one version. In a lot of cases here I felt I like the direction they were going in even if I did not care for the specifics of the spells. Did we even get a version of the warlock spells since the last warlock update?

Conjure Barrage
Conjure Volley
Divine Smite
Elementalism
Hunter's Mark

Barkskin
Find Familiar
Find Steed
Power Word Heal
Power Word Kill
Counterspell
Jump
I like the new counter spell but given that we have not seen some version of these since they went back to class list I really do not know. I had no issue with Divine Smite being a spell and like barkskin as a temp hp buffer that can be upcast to cover more creatures.
Vicious Mockery
Acid Splash
Blade Ward
Chill Touch
Friends
Poison Spray
Produce Flame
Shillelagh
Shocking Grasp
Spare the Dying
True Strike
generally I was positive on these ones.
 

There are no grievances. I'm doing it to teach you since you haven't seemed to get it any other way. You don't get to twist my words and invent stuff for me. That applies to this as well. You don't get to invent grievances. 🤷‍♂️

If you need to frame it like you are teaching me (as though that isn't patronizing) then knock yourself out.

Exactly. Mystical(magical) words. They exist in verbal wizard spells. They exist in verbal clerical spells. And they exist in the verbal singing of bards. Easy to recognize for those who are trained.

And no, you cannot ask for granny using the magical words of creation. Those trigger power and would be spellcasting. They are not a language to be spoken. Athrrak(as a made up example) is a magical word used in the sleep spell. It does not have a meaning like granny.

So what proficiency covers recognizing these languages, since it requires training? Does getting a single spell mean you can now recognize every single spell ever cast by anyone? Since warlocks and sorcerers aren't trained are they fooled by this language? How do I use a spell to transform to look like someone's granny if there is no word in this new language you have made up that means granny?

You can't get to 1 without feeblemind or some other DM inflicted status. If a DM brings the wizard to 1, then he will probably apply all the same problems. You're still comparing apples and oranges.

One of the worst things about 5e is removing minimum stat requirements for spellcasting. It's not just lame, it's stupid for a wizard to be running around casting spells with a 3 int(or any intelligence penalty really).

While I would rule a 3 intelligence as being too stupid to recognize spellcasting, there is no actual rule that says so.

You may assume that a DM would apply that rule, but it is not default included. And, as you state, a 3 INT wizard has no restrictions on counterspelling or recognizing spellcasting... which means your above requirement of needing training to recognize mystical words of creation is immediately false.

You are free to declare "but that is stupid" however, that does not change the rules.

You can ignore the bolded all you like, but continuing to ignore it doesn't change the requirement. You have to KNOW it's casting a spell, which counterspell doesn't provide you one iota of knowledge about.

The rule states you nerd to see the creature casting the spell. It does not state you need to know it is casting a spell.

True is not false. It doesn't need to be in the PHB outside of general movement, because unlike swimming, climbing and crawling, it has no movement penalties. Further, you are ignoring the MM itself to argue this wrong position.

"SPEED
A monster's speed tells you how far i t can move on its turn. For more information on speed, see the Player's Handbook.

All creatures have a walking speed, simply called the monster's speed. Creatures that have no form of groundbased locomotion have a walking speed of 0 feet.

Some creatures have one or more of the following additional movement modes."

Burrowing uses the PHB speed rules along with the MM guidelines.

You are still wrong. Yes, general speed ruled are in the PHB, but burrow has specific rules. They are not guidelines, because they are overwritten by more specific burrowing rules in specific statblocks.

Just because there is a more general rule does not erase the existence of a more specific rule.

Yes. The guidelines there suggest how it works.

No. The rule states how it works, just as Darkvision states how it works, and is not a guideline.

Doesn't matter which came first. The chicken and egg are both guidelines. 🤷‍♂️

Is proficiency in the PHB a guideline? No. Then this is not a guideline. Also, it does matter, since you tried to use the lie that it appeared first in the DMG to discredit the MM rules.

Suggestion on how it recharges. The MM is, by RAW(if you're counting the MM and DMG as rules instead of what the game says), guidelines.

You still haven't solved that dilemma by the way. If the MM and DMG are RAW, then RAW says that both are guidelines and only the PHB has the rules needed to play the game. If they are not RAW, then they are guidelines and only the PHB has the rules needed to play the game. You're in a catch 22.
Per the DMG the rules needed to play the game are there. None of the optional rules in the DMG or splatbooks are needed to run the game. Not one.

The rules for how a recharge mechanic work are not a suggestion just because you can homebrew them.

And the rules for how Rogue Sneak attack works isn't required for running the game either. They are still rules. There is no catch-22, you are simply declaring anything you feel like you can change as a guideline, when the truth is all the rules would therefore be guidelines.

Yes there is. You have to see someone casting a spell. Unless you know it's a spell, you aren't seeing someone cast a spell. You are only seeing someone say something.

I do not need to know what an Iso-flux generator is to see one. That is why the question "what is that?" exists. If you want counterspell to be something only trained characters can attempt after a skill check to ID a spell being cast, feel free. RAW it doesn't work that way.

Provide me where it says that counterspell provides perfect knowledge of all spellcasting within 60 feet. Show me the text and I will admit that that text is a rule. If you can't show it, it doesn't exist and is not a rule.

It doesn't provide perfect knowledge of all spellcasting within 60 ft. That knowledge would include spellcasting you can't see.

Counterspell allows you to counter any spellcasting within 60ft that you can see. That does not require perfect knowledge.
 

So what proficiency covers recognizing these languages, since it requires training? Does getting a single spell mean you can now recognize every single spell ever cast by anyone? Since warlocks and sorcerers aren't trained are they fooled by this language? How do I use a spell to transform to look like someone's granny if there is no word in this new language you have made up that means granny?
There is no proficiency. Mystic words are mystic words. They're mystic whether you are trained or untrained, a caster or non-caster. If you like though, you can require the PC to have arcana. Oh, right, PCs already have all skills whether proficient or not. So pick any skill you can think of and the PC has it and will recognize mystic words.
You may assume that a DM would apply that rule, but it is not default included. And, as you state, a 3 INT wizard has no restrictions on counterspelling or recognizing spellcasting... which means your above requirement of needing training to recognize mystical words of creation is immediately false.
Incorrect. What it means that is even with a 3 int you can recognize mystic words when you hear them. Nothing about a 3 int by RAW means you can't recognize such words. You have one specific beats general example of a 1 int being unable to do it, but nothing by RAW says even a 1 int acquired another way will prevent the PC from understanding the words.
The rule states you nerd to see the creature casting the spell. It does not state you need to know it is casting a spell.
So tell me. How do you know you are seeing a creature cast the spell if you don't know what the words are? Something has to tell you so that you can counterspell.

Nobody is going to just walk around launching random counterspells without knowing a spell is being cast, which is what you are arguing by saying you don't need to know it's casting a spell. 🤦‍♂️
Yes, general speed ruled are in the PHB, but burrow has specific rules. They are not guidelines, because they are overwritten by more specific burrowing rules in specific statblocks.

Just because there is a more general rule does not erase the existence of a more specific rule.

No. The rule states how it works, just as Darkvision states how it works, and is not a guideline.
You can make these incorrect claims until you are blue in the face, but until you can show that the DMG is lying, you are wrong. Can you show the DMG statement to be a lie?
The rules for how a recharge mechanic work are not a suggestion just because you can homebrew them.
They are a suggestion because they are a suggestion. Can you show the DMG statement to be a lie?
And the rules for how Rogue Sneak attack works isn't required for running the game either. They are still rules. There is no catch-22, you are simply declaring anything you feel like you can change as a guideline, when the truth is all the rules would therefore be guidelines.
Can you show the DMG statement to be a lie?
I do not need to know what an Iso-flux generator is to see one.
But you do need to know what it is in order to cast, "Destroy Iso-Flux." If you didn't know what one was, would you cast it every time you saw something you didn't know about? No, you wouldn't.
That is why the question "what is that?" exists. If you want counterspell to be something only trained characters can attempt after a skill check to ID a spell being cast, feel free. RAW it doesn't work that way.
There's already an optional rule for that and it takes your reaction. It's also yet ANOTHER strawman to claim I'm saying that they need to ID the spell.

OH!!! Since you've successfully argued that splatbooks are RAW, yes your Strawman does work that way by RAW. By RAW you need to spend your reaction and make a roll in order to ID the spell. See Xanathar's.
It doesn't provide perfect knowledge of all spellcasting within 60 ft. That knowledge would include spellcasting you can't see.
And yet according to you, someone would be revealed as casting a spell despite doing absolutely nothing to indicate that it is casting a spell. Absolutely nothing. Because moving lips do not indicate spellcasting. That's essentially perfect knowledge.
 

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