D&D 5E Casters should go back to being interruptable like they used to be.

[James Gasik]

So to be clear, my primary focus has been trying to achieve, if not parity, at least some version of symmetry of "threats to character effectiveness".

For me, these concerns are partly about mechanical balance and partly about the presentation of magic and hazards in D&D.

I can't say that I am a keen student of all fantasy spellcasting everywhere, but in every place I've seen it, when faced with a superior melee opponent, the question is almost always "will they be able to cast a spell to turn the tide?"

And in D&D, the only times where that is in question are when the melee opponent can stun (monk only), paralyze (impossible), or render the caster unconscious/dead, before the caster's turn comes. I think we can do better.

Edit: note that I'm speaking in generalities. I think that it'd be fine for certain casters to be more comfortable casting in melee than others. I think it'd be good even to showcase soma additional variety between the classes/subclasses.

I mean, "martial" characters in D&D are designed to deal the most single target damage, right? So the ability to make a pointy hat dead is already a pretty good way to prevent spellcasting.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I mean, "martial" characters in D&D are designed to deal the most single target damage, right? So the ability to make a pointy hat dead is already a pretty good way to prevent spellcasting.

Sure I guess, though the range of martials' damage potential is pretty wide and casters have quite a few tools to make delivering that damage difficult or impossible.

Again it's this weird (to me) asymmetry. Casters have a wide variety of tools to deal with martials, many which also deal damage.

Hell, there are like 5 different 1st level spells which, on a failed save would make it impossible for a martial to move into melee and attack on their turn. I'd also found 3 at 2nd level, just from looking at conditions imposed, two at 3rd level, and four at 4th level (and for levels 2-4, I was only really looking at spells that imposed the frightened, paralyzed, stunned, incapacitated, unconscious, restrained, petrified, or charmed conditions...My that's a lot of conditions that can completely shut down a melee martial's ability to move in and attack. But hey at least we could rule out grappled, which would only keep them from moving, and poisoned and blinded, which would only give them disadvantage on attacks, and prone, which would only halve their movement, oh and invisible which would also likely only put disadvantage on their attacks.

For melee martials they can go for the kill if they get in range on their turn, and that's it.

 

[nevin]

Sure I guess, though the range of martials' damage potential is pretty wide and casters have quite a few tools to make delivering that damage difficult or impossible.

Again it's this weird (to me) asymmetry. Casters have a wide variety of tools to deal with martials, many which also deal damage.

Hell, there are like 5 different 1st level spells which, on a failed save would make it impossible for a martial to move into melee and attack on their turn. I'd also found 3 at 2nd level, just from looking at conditions imposed, two at 3rd level, and four at 4th level (and for levels 2-4, I was only really looking at spells that imposed the frightened, paralyzed, stunned, incapacitated, unconscious, restrained, petrified, or charmed conditions...My that's a lot of conditions that can completely shut down a melee martial's ability to move in and attack. But hey at least we could rule out grappled, which would only keep them from moving, and poisoned and blinded, which would only give them disadvantage on attacks, and prone, which would only halve their movement, oh and invisible which would also likely only put disadvantage on their attacks.

For melee martials they can go for the kill if they get in range on their turn, and that's it.

Problem is the game makes people hero's by giving them enough hitpoints arrows and swords can't kill them in one blow. I think the solution to that is let martials do as much damage on ranged attacks as melee attacks. Range of a Longbow beats almost all spells. All this it sucks to run towards the wizard pretty much mirrors real combat. It sucks to run towards arrows, artillery and guns as well. I think the only real fix is you make it Anime style and ranged attacks are pointless or you accept getting into range sucks. I'm not sure there is a good solution to this.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Problem is the game makes people hero's by giving them enough hitpoints arrows and swords can't kill them in one blow. I think the solution to that is let martials do as much damage on ranged attacks as melee attacks. Range of a Longbow beats almost all spells. All this it sucks to run towards the wizard pretty much mirrors real combat. It sucks to run towards arrows, artillery and guns as well. I think the only real fix is you make it Anime style and ranged attacks are pointless or you accept getting into range sucks. I'm not sure there is a good solution to this.

Agreed that a lot of the problem is ranged versus melee. And there likely is an issue with the balance of hp vs martial damage output (I'm not an expert on the MM, so this could just be perception, and tbh, maybe a bit afield of the topic)

The oft-cited counterpoints to "range is too strong" are "melee gets attack of opportunity" and "you can grapple in melee"..which is cool.

Except that attack of opportunity doesn't trigger on spellcasting, just movement, and it does not impact spellcasting in any way unless it kills the caster. Grappling also..somehow.. does not impact spellcasting in any way. Neither does prone.. or restrained. So you can have that caster on the ground, halfway to an armbar, and they'd have an easier time teleporting to another plane of existence than stabbing you with their dagger. It's crazy.

Something should at least have the potential to make spellcasting more difficult. Maybe it's interrupts, maybe it's making more conditions applicable, maybe it's both, I don't know.

I just look at what happens when you take a caster prisoner. What do you have to do to secure them.

1. Take away their focus or materials pouch
2. Gag them
3. Blindfold them
4. Break or remove their hands (or invent a device to prevent somatic components because the game sure doesn't describe one)
5. Edit: Keep them from sleeping or otherwise resting.

And god help you if you capture a sorcerer or druid.

Like, maybe spellcasting doesn't have to be so reliable that you need to violate the Geneva Convention to prevent it?

 

[Hell0W0rld]

So the ability to make a pointy hat dead is already a pretty good way to prevent spellcasting.

You forgot all the caveats to actually do that damage in the first place. The man in the pointy hat needs to:

• not know in advance that an attack is coming (Clairvoyance)
• not cast defensive spells ahead of time (Mirror Image)
• lose initiative so they can't prevent the enemy's approach (Sleet Storm)
• be within range of the enemy's attacks (Fly)
• have no way to get out of range (Misty Step)
• have no way to neuter the attacks (Shield)
• die in one turn so they can't retaliate

These are all spells of 3rd-level and below. You only need one or two of them to stymie a would-be attacker.

 

[James Gasik]

You forgot all the caveats to actually do that damage in the first place. The man in the pointy hat needs to:

• not know in advance that an attack is coming (Clairvoyance)
• not cast defensive spells ahead of time (Mirror Image)
• lose initiative so they can't prevent the enemy's approach (Sleet Storm)
• be within range of the enemy's attacks (Fly)
• have no way to get out of range (Misty Step)
• have no way to neuter the attacks (Shield)
• die in one turn so they can't retaliate

These are all spells of 3rd-level and below. You only need one or two of them to stymie a would-be attacker.

That is kind of the point- spells are limited resources, after all. Each one used is one less that you have. With one primary exception, martials either have no resources, or short rest resources, not daily resources.

*The Barbarian's Rage. Although on the subclass level, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters have spells as well.

On another note, things that prevent spellcasting could stand to be increased. Certainly grappling should make spellcasting more difficult. The only reason I can think of for why it doesn't is totally balance, because many monsters can grapple, and as most casters are bad at breaking free in the first place, giving them no recourse when grappled might have been seen as a bad thing. Maybe. Kind of on the fence here, because I've seen martials pretty much get hosed by grapple beasts such as the Chuul.

 

[ezo]

The only reason I can think of for why it doesn't is totally balance, because many monsters can grapple, and as most casters are bad at breaking free in the first place, giving them no recourse when grappled might have been seen as a bad thing.

Not a good reason IMO. Casters should be terrified of being grappled and unable to cast spells with somatic components, or at least having to make a check in order to do it. Otherwise, it should be an eventuality casters DO prepare for either by having those strong martials around to help or knowing a spell or two so they can escape.

But, that is just my POV.

 

[ECMO3]

why did you link a video where he's intentionally going extremely slowly for demonstrative purposes? why not something like:

or

Because that was the video I found, but those you posted prove out the same point - I can put my thumbs together and my fingers in a fan far faster than anyone can swing a claymore.

Those guys are swinging MUCH, MUCH slower than I can touch my thumbs and make a fan. I could on average do that probably 3 times for every one of their swings.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm going to have to offer a point of disagreement here.

Let me point out that the following applies only to wizard spells (I'll explain why shortly). Wizard spells are the result of study, and in order to tap into the magic that powers them, Wizards need to follow a certain formula/recipe/rote execution that allows them to unleash and direct magic energies (sorcerers have an innate "feel" for magic, clerics spells are minor divine intervention, and otherwise do not seem like they would be dependent on executing the formulaic actions a wizard must do to trigger a spell).

The rules don't support this position, especially since Wizard spells are on other spell lists and have the exact same casting times and components.

Verbal components might not be subject to disruption by an attack - but a silence spell should put a halt to them and of course if I am grappling with a wizard and he starts chanting esoteric words, I should think holding his jaw closed or jamming my fingers in his mouth would be sufficient to spoil the proper pronunciation of the syllables he needs to pronounce in order to trigger the magic.

I think these things would work. Holding a jaw shut would be an improvised action of course, not an AOO. I think you could make the same type of action to stop somatic components (grabbing his hands). But I dopn't think that would cause the grappled condition.

Similarly, swinging a weapon at a wizard using somatic components to cast a spell forces him to either dodge my attack, thus spoiling the careful pattern his body must move in to trigger the magic, or allows me to hit him, and the force of that blow will itself spoil the careful pattern his body must move in (e.g., if he needs to sweep an arm up and my sword's downstroke catches that arm at belly level, that arm is not going to be able to complete the upward sweep).

As a ready action to improvise an action to disrupt the casting, I think this would be fine, with an appropriate difficulty check. That is fundamentally different than an AOO though.

A material component or a focus could be fumbled when trying to dodge a blow or knocked away on a successful hit.

Sure and a sword or arrow could be fumbled in exactly the same way.

 

[ECMO3]

As it turns out, even if I accept your argument that 5% of casters are out wandering the battlefield in bathrobes, it still means that you'd see it frequently. Around as often as you might see a natural redhead, or a little more. And that robed wanderer is just out there amongst the grizzled warriors, hand-jiving to their hearts' content, perfectly safe from any potential reactions.

Yes, just like the Grizled warriors are dancing around swinging their weapons.

Also to be clear, I did not say they should be safe from reactions, I said casting a spell should not cause an opportunity attack. Those are two very different things. I think someone who wants to ready an action to attack a caster as a reaction should be able to (or use any other applicable reaction against a caster), and RAW that is allowed. They are allowed to do that with the grixzzled warriors too.

I have no idea what you are trying to say with respect to the maul. Near as I can tell you are concluding without either evidence or an argument. And I guess I could do that too, but at that point, we're just going "nuh uh".."yes huh" at each other over something imaginary.

I am saying swinging a Maul exposes one mroe than the somatic components that are described in the PHB. I don't think there is any question of that.

The somatic components described are simple and easy.

The same seems to be the case with respect to general immersiveness as well. It's genuinely interesting to me that you have not referred to a single fantasy spellcaster in this discussion. The only thing I really know about what you think of casters is that you seem to think they shouldn't have any limitations.

Can you give a single example of a fantasy caster where an enemy got to attack them BECAUSE they were casting a spell?

Casters already have limitations in the PHB, including rules on disrupting both spells and the process of spell casting. I have not said those "limitations" should be removed, nor have I argued they should be weakened.