D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

The point is, and I'm pretty sure you understood it, each of these action heroes (as well as most in the genre) take multiple blows, stabbings, cuts, accidents, etc. That for the vast majority of people would result in death, injuries, diminished capabilities, etc. and keep on fighting and going at what would be peak to above peak human capability.
But they don't get run through with swords, disembowelled etc.

In the fiction, they suffer injuries and carry on due to their resolve.

In 4e D&D, PCs are set back by various sorts of attacks and opponents, and carry on due to their resolve and the support of their companions.

How is 4e failing in this respect? In what way is it incoherent or contradictory?

if you find having one mechanic potentially represent two different things (which it leaves up to the players to interpret) as somehow less complex than that same mechanic being only representative of one different thing, then I'm not sure what to tell you, except that you're arguing something that strikes me as self-evidently inarguable with no basis in rationality that I can see.
Whether X is complex depends on both X's inherent and relational properties.

The consequences of insisting that hp loss and restoration is a measure of nothing but physical injury is that the game ceases to make sense. That is a type of complexity, in the sense that the game now includes fictions that can't be reconciled.

if the game attaches two different representations to a single operation, then that's going to require an adjudication of which representation is active at a given time, whereas if there was only a single operation attached to an observation then no such adjudication is needed because that's the default. Quod erat demonstrandum.
In all versions of D&D, AC is both toughness of shell/skin/armour, and quickness at dodging, blocking and parrying. Hence why armour, shields and DEX all add to AC.

Does a ring of protection create a forcefield (and so contribute "shell" AC) or does it deflect blows (and so contribute "shield" and/or "DEX" AC)? The game doesn't tell us. And doesn't need to tell us. If desired or necessary, this can be narrated as the participants (typically, the GM) see fit.

This does not stop AC being a relatively simple combat adjudication system compared to many alternatives. Eg in RQ, the toughness of the armour/shell, the quickness of the dodging, the deftness with the shield, are all broken out separately establishing 1:1 correlations between these mechanical elements and the corresponding fiction. But RQ combat is more complex than AD&D combat.

saying that an additional level of interpretation being off-loaded onto the players is more complex isn't really a matter of opinion, as it has the people interacting with the game necessarily performing an extra step that they wouldn't need to be doing if the game was doing that step already.
In AD&D an attack misses. Did the target dodge? Did the attack glance of the target's armour? The game rules don't tell us; either someone (in my experience most often the GM) narrates something, or else nothing is narrated and we just know that for some or other reason the attack did not set back its target.

In AD&D and attack hits, for 7 hp of damage. Was the target cut? Bruised? Their head cut off? We don't know any of these things until we compare the hp of damage to the target's remaining hp. For instance, a character with 1 hp remaining who loses 7 hp dies, according to the AD&D rulebook - having been reduced below -3 hp by a single blow - and hence may well have been decapitated. Whereas a character with 100 hp remaining who loses 7 hp clearly has not been decapitated, and perhaps has not even had their skin pierced: they may just have been grazed or bruised, and the real set back is to their stamina and resolve.

4e D&D does not introduce any challenges of narration that are not already present in AD&D, and at least in my experience generally makes the narration clearer because the effects associated with the affliction of hp loss help make clear what, in the fiction, is happening.

Otherwise you end up in a situation like the one I pointed out before, where someone with 30 hit points takes 20 points of "fire damage" from a fireball (according to its keyword type), then recovers those hit points from inspiring word making him feel more inspired, and then takes another fireball later on that costs him those same 20 hit points again, which means that by now his injuries should have killed him, and yet he's still alive.
if the DM and/or players narrate the fireball's damage as physical injury, and that the hit points recovered are resilience, and that further hit points lost are also injury, then all of a sudden you have a cognitive gap, as the game is now indicating that the character is alive despite having led the players down what was up until that point a valid interpretation that they should be dead.
This is a problem entirely of your own making. You are introducing notions like "hit points are physical injury" and that hit point loss is a type of linear continuum, none of which are asserted by the rulebook, none of which is implied by the rulebook, and none of which makes any sense.

Say a character is hit be a fireball and loses 20 hp from fire damage. This tells us that the heat and flame have set them back to some or other degree; what degree will depend on their overall hp total, or even more precisely on their healing surge value, which is by default a quarter of their hp total but can be increased by various character features. When they recover hp due to having their resolve firmed up, they are no longer set back. Much like @Imaro's action hero, they have regained their will to strive and fight on. They are no longer tired and worn down and hence vulnerable to a lucky or skilled or sneaky blow.

There is no contradiction or "cognitive gap" here.

Hence the problem, as yet unresolved, of players legitimately interpreting various operations of hit point loss as being injury, likewise legitimately interpreting hit point recovery as being resilience, and then having to navigate the problem of the character having taken more "injury hp" loss than is survivable, yet still being alive because of "resilience hp" recovery.
I reiterate that this is a problem of your own making, brought on by insisting that there are two categories of hp loss and hp gain, although nothing in the 4e D&D rulebooks supports such a claim.

The mechanics of 4E tells you that hit point loss/restoration is coming from at least two different things, which address completely different aspects of the fiction (e.g. injury and resilience).
Again, here you assert that these two things are completely different, but in the fiction of 4e they are not. As I already posted upthread, 4e D&D posits that heroic resolve, and the support of one's fellows, enables a person to go on despite injury, to overcome the setbacks that being attacked by sword and arrow and dragon's breath cause. In this respect it somewhat resembles @Imaro's action hero, although with more of an emphasis on the support/fellowship aspect (because for most 4e characters, more healing surge expenditure will be triggered by an ally's use of a Healing power than by drawing on their own reserves, especially in the thick of combat).

Which at least establishes that wounds are being cured, and so you don't run into instances of characters having repeatedly taken injuries which they're ignoring thanks to "resilience restoration" despite the cumulative total of their injuries being above what they should be able to survive, in terms of hit points lost.een concerned with.
First, AD&D actually does have this problem. The only injuries that can be restored by a few days of bed rest are "resilience" ones - limbs do not regrow, bone and joint damage does not repair itself in this sort of time frame (if at all). So any narration in AD&D of hp loss as being more severe than bruising and grazing will produce incoherence as soon as characters recover by resting.

Second, you are very focused on the Wounds part of the spell Cure Light Wounds but not the Light part - whereas I have repeatedly pointed out that the spell is able to heal very serious, even mortal, wounds to most of the characters in the gameworld (people with more than 8 hp being nearly all above 1st level and hence rather rare specimens). No reason has been given why one but not the other word is so important - whereas the much more plausible understanding, in my view, is simply that Arneson and/or Gygax came up with a set of "scaled" adjectives for their level-scaled healing spells (Light, Serious and Critical Wounds); but did not have any strong conviction about what the use of healing magic on (say) a 4th level PC who has lost 5 hp actually looks like in the fiction.
 

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With the rare exception, of course, of having had a limb removed by a weapon of sharpness (do those still exist in 4e-5e?) or rendered useless by the Wither spell. There were also a few traps in published modules intended to cause specific injuries - I recall one that was set to chop the hand off whoever reached into a hole without first disarming the trap - but for the most part D&D has never had any sort of called-shot or injury-location system.
Yes, as I posted upthread, it does not particularly support claims to verisimilitude to assert that hp loss is mostly physical injury, and yet a dragon never bites off one's hand in a fight, and that maiming or decapitation are possible only from a handful of the most powerful magic items in the game, or relatively bespoke traps.
 

Which leads to another, tangential idea: there's valid design space for curatives that only work on one type of "injury", but for those to function there needs to be more clarity around defining injury types.
Rolemaster's healing system is based entirely around this. For instance, a -10 bruise heals differently from a -10 burn, whether the healing is by way of rest or by way of magic. (The magical healing lists are Muscle (including tendons), Bone (including cartilage), Blood (heals bleeding and damaged vessels, but not blood loss itself), Nerve and Organ, and Concussion (which heals blood loss, bruises, frostbite and burns).)

EDIT: Ninja'd by @soviet.

It would take some minor kitbashing to any edition to insert this idea
The idea is not compatible with 4e D&D at all; as far as I can tell is not compatible with 5e D&D (given that much hp recovery in 5e is not connected to physical injury), and according to Gygax is not compatible with AD&D (as he explains in his DMG, hit locations and damage types are not relevant, given that most hit point loss is not physical injury).
 

I have 17 hit points and a grue stabs me for 16 damage. I have 1 hit point left. I can move, fight, dance, and play the drums exactly as well as before. The next morning I wake up and I am soon back to full hit points. The incident leaves no lasting effect at all.

I have 16 hit points and a grue stabs me for 16 damage, I have no hit points left. Depending on edition I am either dead or making death saves.

Is the first one an injury? It had no lasting effect and it went away the next morning (or a few days later in different editions).

Is the second one an injury? It killed me, or put me at death's door.

Should we describe the two attacks in the same way? They have the same attacker, the same defender, the same situation, and the same attack and damage rolls. The only difference is whether my character had one more hit point in the tank or not.
So the answer to me seems to be obviously not! That is certainly the answer that 4e D&D gives.
 


Doesn't answer the need for short rests though...
This claim is highly contentious, given that two of the most canonical sources for pre-3E D&D play, namely Gygax's PHB and DMG, say otherwise.
I hear you but I did say predominantly physical not exclusively...and that opinion of mine I get through the actual mechanics of the game.
Maybe Gygax had something different in mind but the mechanics push back against that and that is what counts.
 

I hear you but I did say predominantly physical not exclusively...and that opinion of mine I get through the actual mechanics of the game.
Maybe Gygax had something different in mind but the mechanics push back against that and that is what counts.
My experience of the mechanics points the other way - for the reasons give in my example and @soviet's example from upthread:
In AD&D an attack hits, for 7 hp of damage. Was the target cut? Bruised? Their head cut off? We don't know any of these things until we compare the hp of damage to the target's remaining hp. For instance, a character with 1 hp remaining who loses 7 hp dies, according to the AD&D rulebook - having been reduced below -3 hp by a single blow - and hence may well have been decapitated. Whereas a character with 100 hp remaining who loses 7 hp clearly has not been decapitated, and perhaps has not even had their skin pierced: they may just have been grazed or bruised, and the real set back is to their stamina and resolve.
I have 17 hit points and a grue stabs me for 16 damage. I have 1 hit point left. I can move, fight, dance, and play the drums exactly as well as before. The next morning I wake up and I am soon back to full hit points. The incident leaves no lasting effect at all.

I have 16 hit points and a grue stabs me for 16 damage, I have no hit points left. Depending on edition I am either dead or making death saves.

Is the first one an injury? It had no lasting effect and it went away the next morning (or a few days later in different editions).

Is the second one an injury? It killed me, or put me at death's door.

Should we describe the two attacks in the same way? They have the same attacker, the same defender, the same situation, and the same attack and damage rolls. The only difference is whether my character had one more hit point in the tank or not.
A 7 hp, or 16 hp deduction against one character may correlate to a 1 hp loss by another (eg losing 7 hp from your 100 hp total is clearly no more serious than, and perhaps less serious than, losing 1 hp from a 4 hp total).

And correlations can go the other way: a 1 hp loss suffered by a character who is unconscious and has bled to -3 or worse will, in AD&D, kill them (bringing them below -3 in a single blow), as will a 16 hp loss suffered by a character who is at full strength and has 12 hp (say, a pretty tough 1st level fighter).

So to me, it seems clear that hp deductions are prompts to narration, where what is narrated is dependent on the current hp of the target of the attack, and what that running total will become once the deduction is applied. Whether this is physical injury will depend on these circumstances; and I don't see how we can quantify hp loss as "mostly" physical injury in any robust fashion.

Doesn't answer the need for short rests though...
PCs ask to rest in order to recover hit points. If they were not more vulnerable, why do you believe they break from adventuring to rest?
PCs rest to regain their breath, recover their resolve, etc. This is addressed on p 263 of the 4e PHB:

About 5 minutes long, a short rest consists of stretching your muscles and catching your breath after an encounter. . . .

You have to rest during a short rest. You can stand guard, sit in place, ride on a wagon or other vehicle, or do other tasks that don’t require much exertion. . . .

If your short rest is interrupted, you need to rest another 5 minutes to get the benefits of a short rest.​

In 4e, a short rest also allows refreshing encounter powers. As p 54 of the PHB says,

If you’re a martial character, they are exploits you’ve practiced extensively but can pull off only once in a while. If you’re an arcane or divine character, these are spells or prayers of such power that they take time to re-form in your mind after you unleash their magic energy.​

PCs don't take short rests to knit their broken bones, close their gaping wounds or regrow their severed limbs!
 

Re cures applying only to specific types of damage e.g. burns or actual wounds or fatigue or sonic, etc.:
The idea is not compatible with 4e D&D at all; as far as I can tell is not compatible with 5e D&D (given that much hp recovery in 5e is not connected to physical injury), and according to Gygax is not compatible with AD&D (as he explains in his DMG, hit locations and damage types are not relevant, given that most hit point loss is not physical injury).
In all three of those systems - 1e, 4e, and 5e - I could kitbash this in with only the following changes:

--- (in 1e only) add and codify a bunch of damage types that are currently only informal at best
--- players would have to track the type of damage (radiant, sonic, burn, electric, etc.; or generic (e.g. what most normal weapons do)) along with the amount of damage taken
--- add in various items, spells, and other things that cure specific damage types only e.g. a Potion of Blessing that cures only necrotic damage; an Aloe Herb that cures only burn damage; a Neutralize Charge spell that only cures electric damage, and so forth.

To make the physical/fatigue side work one could either add a wounds-vitality hit point system or just use a variant of the Bloodied mechanic that 4e already has. So, with this you'd have [spell-potion-etc.] of Cure Fatigue for when the recipient is at or above the Bloodied threshold and [spell-potion-etc.] of Cure Wounds for when the recipient is below it.

To really get complicated these could be combined e.g. there could be something that only works on burn wounds (i.e. the damage has to be burn damage and you have to be Bloodied).

All in all this is a very easy kitbash (as such things go) and - somewhat amazingly for 4e and 5e - has no obvious knock-on effects. The most time-consuming bit would be coming up with all the new items and spells, but that's not difficult.

This idea does add some player-side recordkeeping complexity, however, which I quickly admit is a strike against it.
 

All in all this is a very easy kitbash (as such things go) and - somewhat amazingly for 4e and 5e - has no obvious knock-on effects.
In your "kitbash", you are separating "fatigue"-type damage from "injury"-type damage. How does this make sense with Healing Surges, Inspiring Word, Second Wind, etc?
 

Which leads to another, tangential idea: there's valid design space for curatives that only work on one type of "injury", but for those to function there needs to be more clarity around defining injury types.

The example here would be a (probably aloe-based) potion or salve that cures burns just fine but isn't any use for any other type of injury. Other possibilities would be having potions or salves (or spells, for all that) that only cure physical injury, while having others that only restore fatigue-stamina-etc. but leave the actual body just as nicked and bruised as it was before. The possibilities are, if not endless, certainly vast. :)

It would take some minor kitbashing to any edition to insert this idea, though there was a 1e-era Dragon article about magical herbs that waved at it with its inclusion of a few herbs that did injury-type-specific curing.
I would be worried that this sort of design would potentially be more hassle than it's worth and possibly a case of over-engineering. I think that there is a reason that HP tends to endure across a lot of tabletop and video games. It's easy and straightforward to understand as a game mechanic. It's really only edge cases that rub a small subset of people the wrong way, though I think that is due to their own preferences. 🤷‍♂️
 
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