D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

Trudvang Chronicles works this way.

You attack against a fixed DC, regardless of the target. You either hit or don’t.

Then the defender can, if he have the points for it, try to parry. He either succeed or fail.

If the attack pass, you then roll damage and a part from it can be absorb by your armor if you have one.

When I feel like playing in a more « realistic » fantasy setting, that’s my game of choice.

That's not far from how various BRP derived systems have worked for forever now. They're not lacking in some issues (mainly that as skill grows, you can get a lot of stagnant fights, which various derivatives have tried to address) but its functional.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

For me, it is the same as if someone would refuse that a character still take damage from a successful saving throw. I mean, he succeeded right? So why does he still take damage if he succeed? Or if someone would refuse that you can still have a consequence even if you succeed your roll in a PbtA. You can disagree with it, but don't judge it by refusing to take into account the parameter of the rule. Because the parameter that a miss can still involve being hit is made clear, so saying that 'a miss should be a miss! Period!' is the same as saying that 'a success should be a success! Period!'... and I don't see people bringing this up.
I remember being entirely vexed by this when I first started playing D&D. It was preposterous. But then I accepted that's how it was, internalized it, and this became the new normal. It wasn't an issue until I started teaching people D&D. Lo and behold! The same point of contention cropped up. "Why do I still take damage, if I succeeded on my saving throw? Did I avoid the fireball or not?" The cycle repeats.

That's not far from how various BRP derived systems have worked for forever now. They're not lacking in some issues (mainly that as skill grows, you can get a lot of stagnant fights, which various derivatives have tried to address) but its functional.
It's my understanding that RuneQuest was big in Sweden. It's little surprise that so many other games that come from there often draw inspiration from BRP.
 

First of all, I said so earlier and will repeat it again, I really don't care how other people decide to play the game or not, their table their rules. And I won't ever think that I can somehow convince other people to play or view something differently, I've been on the internet for long enough to know that it is not how things work. On the contrary, it has the tendancy to force both party into an entrenchment and start to see things as black and white only with no grey area. Doesn't mean that I don't like to argue from time to time on the internet because quite honestly, I like to have my perception/opinion challenged sometimes, it helps to stay out of the echo chamber where you are only surrounded by persons who thinks like you. Doesn't mean that I will change my idea, but still, it can be good to be reminded that not everybody thinks like you.

Where I don't agree with you, it's about the source of the problem, it's not about the idea that a to hit roll should be a binary operation for some. Quite frankly, I have never, ever saw someone have a problem with the Fireball spell, or any spell, doing damage on a miss like it does in 4e. This 'problem' always come up regarding a martial class doing damage on a miss. So it's not really about the mechanic, it's about the narrative tied to it. It's really about the idea that a fighter who miss its attack should not be able to still do some damage. It's working for magic, but not for martial attack. And quite frankly, in other editions, I could accept that, I would turn it into a saving throw. For exemple, I don't think there would be a problem with that power, would there be?

Reaping Strike: You punctuate your scything attacks with wicked jabs and small cutting blows that slip through your enemy's defenses. The defender must make a dexterity Saving Throw. If he fail, he suffer 1(W)+Strength modifier damage. If he succeed, he takes half your Strength Modifier damage or equal to your Strength modifier if you are wielding a two-handed weapon.

But in the case of 4e, it is made clear, written black on white, that a miss can still have hit the target. It is made clear that it is not, in fact, a binary operation. So it is about refusing the parameter set from a game and then saying that it is unrealistic, that it doesn't make any sense. For me, it is the same as if someone would refuse that a character still take damage from a successful saving throw. I mean, he succeeded right? So why does he still take damage if he succeed? Or if someone would refuse that you can still have a consequence even if you succeed your roll in a PbtA. You can disagree with it, but don't judge it by refusing to take into account the parameter of the rule. Because the parameter that a miss can still involve being hit is made clear, so saying that 'a miss should be a miss! Period!' is the same as saying that 'a success should be a success! Period!'... and I don't see people bringing this up.
Nobody's saying that the rule doesn't work the way you say; as you noted, it's pretty clear. They just don't like it, and don't agree with the philosophy that led to it.
 

Nobody's saying that the rule doesn't work the way you say; as you noted, it's pretty clear. They just don't like it, and don't agree with the philosophy that led to it.
People can dislike the rule as much as they want, this I really don’t care. As I said multiple time, to each their own.

What I have a harder time understanding, is people saying that it doesn’t make any sense by denying the parameter of the game that allows the rule to make sense. 4e specifically say that a miss is not necessarily a full miss, that it is not a black or white situation but more nuance than that.

People may dislike it however they want, it doesn’t change the fact that, within the parameter established by 4e, it does make sense.
 

People can dislike the rule as much as they want, this I really don’t care. As I said multiple time, to each their own.

What I have a harder time understanding, is people saying that it doesn’t make any sense by denying the parameter of the game that allows the rule to make sense. 4e specifically say that a miss is not necessarily a full miss, that it is not a black or white situation but more nuance than that.

People may dislike it however they want, it doesn’t change the fact that, within the parameter established by 4e, it does make sense.
Sure, but 4e isn't just it's own separate game (although it absolutely is that, and ideally should be treated as such). It's part of the history of official D&D, and it is unreasonable to analyze it without considering the other games before and after it, some by the same publisher and even the same designers, that have officially gone under that name. If 4e were made by someone other than WotC or if it had been called something else, it would be different. But it wasn't, so it just can't be judged solely on its own merits, particularly when people's feelings are involved.
 

Sure, but 4e isn't just it's own separate game (although it absolutely is that, and ideally should be treated as such). It's part of the history of official D&D, and it is unreasonable to analyze it without considering the other games before and after it, some by the same publisher and even the same designers, that have officially gone under that name. If 4e were made by someone other than WotC or if it had been called something else, it would be different. But it wasn't, so it just can't be judged solely on its own merits, particularly when people's feelings are involved.
I am curious about this perspective and what it is intended to mean.

Like what is the judgement that we are trying to reach, who should be making it, and why?

Because it seems to me that the differing parties here would disagree on possibly all of those parameters.
 


I am curious about this perspective and what it is intended to mean.

Like what is the judgement that we are trying to reach, who should be making it, and why?

Because it seems to me that the differing parties here would disagree on possibly all of those parameters.
What do you mean? 4e shouldn't be analyzed in the context of the place it held as the face of the industry? I agree that it's a very different game, but it was still the current edition of Dungeons & Dragons, with everything that entails, for several years. That is just as much a part of what 4e was as were any of its mechanics, lore, or the design philosophy that led to the creation of all those things. What exactly is there to disagree with in all that?
 

What do you mean? 4e shouldn't be analyzed in the context of the place it held as the face of the industry? I agree that it's a very different game, but it was still the current edition of Dungeons & Dragons, with everything that entails, for several years. That is just as much a part of what 4e was as were any of its mechanics, lore, or the design philosophy that led to the creation of all those things. What exactly is there to disagree with in all that?
You say we must include as one of our parameters to judge 4e the history of D&D.

I'm asking what is the question you think we are trying to answer with this judgement?

There should be some agreement on what the question is before trying to stake out the relevant evidence for one conclusion or another.

The follow ons were why is this the appropriate question to reach a conclusion on. And who is the appropriate arbiter to make that conclusion.

Edit: and to be clear, I don't have a particular issue with considering the historical trajectory of D&D as a consideration, I'm just looking to better understand what question we're trying to answer.
 
Last edited:

You've played a lot of AD&D, as best I can tell.

Why, when a 10th level fighter is stabbed from behind, unawares, by a spear, do they not die?
Good question; and also a fine example of the same thing Micah is getting at, where the rules don't properly model what would reasonably be expected to happen in the fiction.

1e isn't perfect in its fiction-modelling. Neither is 4e, nor any other edition.

That said, houserules can be used to improve the modelling; it'll never be perfect, but nudging it closer toward "good enough" is always a worthy goal. In this example with the fighter, one could use the 1e assassination table (or a variant) to determine if the fighter is killed outright by the strike, and if not then damage applies as normal (which, given that it's likely a Thief or Assassin making such a strike anyway, is probably going to be considerable).
 

Remove ads

Top