Level Up (A5E) Martial Artistry (3pp book in the works) Ideas and Concepts

[lichmaster]

Wow, lots of super interesting stuff here!!!
In general I'm not super fond of the idea of adding more classes, unless they explore a completely new aspect of the game (like psionics). I'd rather have archetypes than fully fledged classes, but that's me.

New Combat Traditions
Deepwood Sniper for more archery and ranged combat options. Inquisitor's Brand for righteous crusaders and exorcists. Serpent's Grip for wrasslin' and grappling. Thundering Bombard for guns and cannons, specifically. And I'm still planning to do the Elemental Bending styles, but haven't got names for them, yet.

I'm all in for new combat traditions instead. There's a giant design space here that can be filled. Actually, I think some of the above mentioned classes could be represented quite well with existing classes and a new archetype that exploits new combat traditions (like a gun slinging tradition).

Combat Synergies
The core of what this thread was about, essentially. Just even more of them.

For what I understood this was the original plan, which was very cool for me. I'm all in for this!

Mass Combat as Roles
Mass Combat is best with the players involved, but often gets bogged down by big rules-heavy systems. So instead make units into creatures with stat blocks and specific benefits based on their role in combat, and allow players to chose a mass combat role that keys into the NPC stat blocks.

So you'd pick one of four roles:

Artillery: Archers, Mages, Ranged Damage NPC Units
Flanker: Cavalry, Rogues, Fast Moving NPC Units
Front Line: Fighters, Ogres, Melee Damage NPC Units.
Support: Commanders, Priests, Supportive NPC Units.

Each unit has a weakness against one of the other unit types (Support has disadvantage on attacks against enemy Artillery, for example) but PC commands grant a unit advantage against two other, pre-determined, unit types (Artillery is good against Front Line and Support, for example).

Players pick the units they want to command and go on through the encounter, giving directions for who their unit should attack. This can be done either as a purely-mass combat structure... Or:

Mass Combat as Dungeons
Yup. Mass combat as dungeons involves setting up various battle-set-pieces largely as backdrops on the action between the players and their objectives. Whether that's killing an enemy commander, taking a wall from NPC soldiers, or otherwise performing dungeon-activities on a battlefield. The Mass Combat Roles still apply, but act as a 'timer' for players to succeed at a goal before their forces are "overwhelmed" and forced to retreat, ending the encounter.

The party then has to choose whether to continue fighting for their objective (with increased personal danger) or retreat with their forces to safety.

This has potential but is also in a space with several alternatives, created over different periods, rulesets and crunchy-ness profile. I like the 3.5 version created (adopted) for War of the Burning Sky, which seems to blend the two ideas you're describing here. Maybe you can give a look to that to better differentiate your idea?

New Weaponry
Mostly guns. Specifically guns that are more or less balanced against standard A5e weapons like swords and axes. Meant to be used in settings where firearms are more common and less "Oh my gosh look at this super rare item, better make it really good and slap a 300gp price tag boost on it!"... But also things like two-handed finesse weapons, whips that are stronger, and...

This is also interesting, albeit I'd prefer a system to generate weapons than an over growing list that may need maintenance (I think I found such a system, I'll post it in a separate thread). However guns are a minority, so probably this space deserves more options if one wants them to be a preponderant aspect of the game

Class Weaponry
13th Age may have been right. Here's an alternate system wherein weapons deal more or less damage based on who is wielding them and their proficiency with them. Or other benefits. Like Throwing Knives that scale their damage and range in the hands of Rogues to make them similar in usefulness to a shortbow so you don't feel like you have to sacrifice character concept for combat effectiveness.

This seems a different twist over the simple/martial/exotic simple system of 5e, and could be interesting.
I'm not sure I'd want specific weapons to be tied to (or benefiting mostly) specific classes, but at the same time reinforcing some concepts already baked in the class while allowing more versatility by sacrificing those additional benefits could be interesting.

So my questions to y'all are twofold:

1) Do you like this content?
2) What else would you like to see in the book?

I'm really curious to see what you'll come up with!

One thing I think could be cool is more nuanced proficiency with weapons: currently, characters being proficient in a weapon is a binary condition and the attack bonus is simply dictated by their level. One character that has just learned to use a new weapon will have the same baseline skill of another character that picked the same weapon at level 1. Sure, they may be able to play different tricks with that weapon due to class difference and combat tradition, but their basic level of weapon wielding would be identical (same weapon damage, weapon properties, attack bonus etc). What if instead there was a simple system that could show an improvement of even the baseline skill with the weapon, related on how long they have been using it?
Something like being able to use the weapon as if it had additional properties, tiered to their experience? This wouldn't overshadow class skills or combat traditions, but still give that bit of an edge (pun intended) to characters with greater mastery over a weapon, showing their superiority with even a simple unmodified attack

 

[Corinnguard]

In Pathfinder 1st edition, there was an option for anyone using feats called Combat Tricks. These tricks used something akin to Exertion, and basically they allowed you to do something extra with whatever combat feat your character happened to have.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemaster...d-combat-tricks-optional-rules/#combat_tricks I am not sure how they would work here given that 5e feats and A5e feats already provide you more benefits than a PF1 feat. But it would be interesting for any martial wanting to have a trick up their sleeve. Hmm...a Trickster combat tradition?

 

[Steampunkette]

is duck and roll meant to be a better practiced roll? i mean if so then fair enough (i wouldn't be surprised if gunslingers didn't get razor's edge as a tradition option after all), but they seem really close.

kinda funny that you're making stuff for this book for your own setting - i was actually waiting for this book so i could use it for the zeitgeist game i wanna run eventually. i did actually write up my own guns for that (basically bumping up the firearms tech level of the setting to match most of the rest of it because the discrepancy bothered me), but i'm not exactly an experienced game designer, so if yours are better (which is quite likely, frankly) i might just use them instead.

Yes and no. It's less distance than practiced roll, but plays into cover mechanics which are very nice. And it does ignore difficult terrain... but it's also kind of modeled after Long Step, for Adepts. Their exertion focus allows them to dodge or disengage as a bonus action, after all. And with -their- movement rates... woofta!

I think you might want to change the name of this class just so no one confuses it with the Warmage archetype for the A5e Wizard. https://a5e.tools/rules/warmage


Synergy feat chains involving the classes you'll be introducing in Martial Artistry?

A Gunmage archetype for the Wizard? It could be something like PF1's Spellslinger archetype for the Wizard. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizard-archetypes/spellslinger

The Warmage thing is a really good note, yeah... I don't -want- to change it, but I may have to.

Synergy chains are a possibility... But I -did- do a Motif Class called Spellslinger for Purple Martin Games' "System Architecture: Motif Classes", so there's that to consider.

Wow, lots of super interesting stuff here!!!
In general I'm not super fond of the idea of adding more classes, unless they explore a completely new aspect of the game (like psionics). I'd rather have archetypes than fully fledged classes, but that's me.

I'm all in for new combat traditions instead. There's a giant design space here that can be filled. Actually, I think some of the above mentioned classes could be represented quite well with existing classes and a new archetype that exploits new combat traditions (like a gun slinging tradition).

For what I understood this was the original plan, which was very cool for me. I'm all in for this!

This has potential but is also in a space with several alternatives, created over different periods, rulesets and crunchy-ness profile. I like the 3.5 version created (adopted) for War of the Burning Sky, which seems to blend the two ideas you're describing here. Maybe you can give a look to that to better differentiate your idea?

This is also interesting, albeit I'd prefer a system to generate weapons than an over growing list that may need maintenance (I think I found such a system, I'll post it in a separate thread). However guns are a minority, so probably this space deserves more options if one wants them to be a preponderant aspect of the game

This seems a different twist over the simple/martial/exotic simple system of 5e, and could be interesting.
I'm not sure I'd want specific weapons to be tied to (or benefiting mostly) specific classes, but at the same time reinforcing some concepts already baked in the class while allowing more versatility by sacrificing those additional benefits could be interesting.

I'm really curious to see what you'll come up with!

One thing I think could be cool is more nuanced proficiency with weapons: currently, characters being proficient in a weapon is a binary condition and the attack bonus is simply dictated by their level. One character that has just learned to use a new weapon will have the same baseline skill of another character that picked the same weapon at level 1. Sure, they may be able to play different tricks with that weapon due to class difference and combat tradition, but their basic level of weapon wielding would be identical (same weapon damage, weapon properties, attack bonus etc). What if instead there was a simple system that could show an improvement of even the baseline skill with the weapon, related on how long they have been using it?
Something like being able to use the weapon as if it had additional properties, tiered to their experience? This wouldn't overshadow class skills or combat traditions, but still give that bit of an edge (pun intended) to characters with greater mastery over a weapon, showing their superiority with even a simple unmodified attack

After playing 2e for a -very- long time I am, in fact, quite leery of putting in weapon proficiency advancement systems... 5/2, 3/1, 7/2... if you know you know...

I kind of feel that's part of what Fighting Styles do? And I made a Gunslinger Archetype (Maverick) who progress their fighting style as they gain levels... maybe that's the key? Set up a "Weapon Specialization" tier of class-abilities for fighty-types that get fighting styles to show increased mastery?

So far as the weapons for classes thing... What I'm doing with the companion classes is, for me, a little wild. For -some- of them I'm giving them typed proficiencies that don't include the word "Martial". Like the Construct is proficient in all Bludgeoning weapons, which covers everything from a Maul to Improvised Bludgeoning Weapons, but they get no "Swords" proficiency. Meanwhile the Fey companion gets Piercing weapons, and the Scoundrel will get Finesse. And, finally, the Squire will get Reach -and- Versatile weapon proficiencies.

The weapons for classes system would probably be fairly similar. With rogues increasing their damage dealt with Finesse and Ranged weapons to a d8 unless the weapon deals more damage. Rangers with Dual-Wielding and Ranged weapons to d8s. Things like that. Adepts gaining a similar benefit to their Adept Weapons... Maybe capped to their Martial Arts die?

Would also be kinda great to see Berserkers treating Versatile weapons in one hand as if they were held in both hands, just to show off they're strong, y'know? Still generally better to use a two-hander for the higher damage die, but one-handing a d10 is pretty choice.

In Pathfinder 1st edition, there was an option for anyone using feats called Combat Tricks. These tricks used something akin to Exertion, and basically they allowed you to do something extra with whatever combat feat your character happened to have.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemaster...d-combat-tricks-optional-rules/#combat_tricks I am not sure how they would work here given that 5e feats and A5e feats already provide you more benefits than a PF1 feat. But it would be interesting for any martial wanting to have a trick up their sleeve. Hmm...a Trickster combat tradition?

Depending on how silly you want to go, there -is- the Comedic Jabs combat tradition in GPG 19 from September 2023. @Mike Myler did a fantastic job with that one. But I -am- looking at a Trickshot combat tradition.

 

[Steampunkette]

Showman's Shot and Surgeon's Strike... I think those are decent names?

 

[foxblade]

Showman's Shot and Surgeon's Strike... I think those are decent names?

Is surgeon's strike more assist/healing or straight-up offense? if the former, it may convey the wrong meaning. if the later, perfect. (if this is for the combat medic one you said you had ideas for, if not, ignore me)

Showman's Shot - no notes

 

[Steampunkette]

Is surgeon's strike more assist/healing or straight-up offense? if the former, it may convey the wrong meaning. if the later, perfect. (if this is for the combat medic one you said you had ideas for, if not, ignore me)

Showman's Shot - no notes

Surgeon's Strike is going to be doing helpful things while attacking. Things like helping downed allies by forcing enemies away from them, precision-strikes for bleed, and using medicine checks mid-combat to patch up their pals.

 

[foxblade]

Surgeon's Strike is going to be doing helpful things while attacking. Things like helping downed allies by forcing enemies away from them, precision-strikes for bleed, and using medicine checks mid-combat to patch up their pals.

I do love that. hmm, if you want to keep the alliteration and maybe include things like herblore rather than just the surgical arts while more emphasizing the helpful aspect, may I suggest Altruistic Assailant or something along those lines? Just spitballing though.

 

[Corinnguard]

The Warmage thing is a really good note, yeah... I don't -want- to change it, but I may have to.

Mageblade? Arcane Blade? Blade Magus?

Depending on how silly you want to go, there -is- the Comedic Jabs combat tradition in GPG 19 from September 2023. @Mike Myler did a fantastic job with that one. But I -am- looking at a Trickshot combat tradition.

I am waiting for the GPG 2023 Annual to launch on Kickstarter. So I'll be able to see the Arcane Knight, Eldritch Blackguard and Comedic Jabs combat traditions some time from now. The Trickshot combat tradition sounds cool. I hope that it will cover all of the weapons that have the Thrown property, like the boomerang and the chakram.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I am waiting for the GPG 2023 Annual to launch on Kickstarter. So I'll be able to see the Arcane Knight, Eldritch Blackguard and Comedic Jabs combat traditions some time from now. The Trickshot combat tradition sounds cool. I hope that it will cover all of the weapons that have the Thrown property, like the boomerang and the chakram.

well, the arcane knight was in the 2022 annual - the combat traditions in the 2023 annual will be the other two you mentioned as well as gallant heart.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Showman's Shot and Surgeon's Strike... I think those are decent names?

based on what you mentioned surgeon's strike seems fine, but i don't care for showman's shot as a name personally - partly because it feels structurally similar to surgeon's strike as a name, but also because it, ironically, doesn't feel...showy...enough. i couldn't think of a better word then "showy" there.

that said, when i took a shot at the idea myself i called the tradition "diving deva", so maybe you shouldn't take my advice when it comes to naming things actually...