D&D 5E Sell me on 5th…

[Maxperson]

So I am not sure I understand your point.

The Ranger I cited was A LOT different than other "standard" Rangers.

The ranger you cited was played different from "standard" rangers, but was still mechanically mostly the same as every other ranger. The class abilities are the class abilities. Subclasses only vary that a little bit.

At 20th level a ranger has 19 abilities. Only 4 of which come from subclass. That means that around mechanically your ranger was 80% the same as every other ranger out there.

 

[ECMO3]

The ranger you cited was played different from "standard" rangers, but was still mechanically mostly the same as every other ranger. The class abilities are the class abilities. Subclasses only vary that a little bit.

That is not true on a Ranger. Fey Wanderer dramatically changes the mechanics due to three specific subclass abilities:

1. Otherwordly Glamour: The Ranger class mechanics make for a poor "Face" character, but Otherworldly glamour dramatically changes this. With OG and a+2 Charisma and Max Wisdom, a Fey Wanderer Ranger can be the best Face in the game, even eclipsling a bard in that role. My Fey Wanderer at level 5 had a +12 Deception, +9 Persuasion, +9 Intimidation, and +6 on all other Charisma checks along with Guidance on top of that. By the time the game ended at level 16 she had +18 Deception, +18 Persuasion, +13 Intimidation and +8 on all other charisma checks ... again with guidance on top of that. This is not even as good as she could have been. If I made Charisma my #2 stat instead of Dexterity it would have been even better.

2. Beguiling Twist: This makes the Ranger a force throwing around Charms and Frightened. It works best with both another caster in the party focused on those conditions, but the Ranger can "go it alone" by picking up Cause Fear through Fey Touched. This is an extremely powerful ability if you lean into it because every time an enemy makes a save you twist it on to another. Also after the twist concentration goes away allowing you to cast another concentration spell.

3. Fey Reinforcements: This allows concentration-free summon Fey, meaning you can spam them. They also get a Bonus action charm every turn which you can use to trigger Beguiling Twist on a save against that charm. This is arguably the most OP thing I have seen in combat period because of how it dramatically changes action economy.

Add in Charm Person and Dispel Magic through your subcclass and this plays very, very different. The last Fey Wanderer I played into 16th level rarely used the attack action at all. She spent most of her turns summoning Fey or casting Cause Fear, Charm Person, Dispel Magic or an offensive Ranger spell and being a control caster. She tried Charisma checks in combat more than she used the attack action.

At 20th level a ranger has 19 abilities. Only 4 of which come from subclass. That means that around mechanically your ranger was 80% the same as every other ranger out there.

Sure but it is the abilities you use that matter in terms of how you play. All Paladins have divine

Yes she had all the class mechanics - extra attack and a fighting style (Druidic Warrior), Primal Explorerer, Nature's veil, Favored Foe etc, but She was mostly a caster by this time and did not often use those abilities (except for Nature's Veil).

 

[Maxperson]

That is not true on a Ranger. Fey Wanderer dramatically changes the mechanics due to three specific subclass abilities:

1. Otherwordly Glamour: The Ranger class mechanics make for a poor "Face" character, but Otherworldly glamour dramatically changes this. With OG and a+2 Charisma and Max Wisdom, a Fey Wanderer Ranger can be the best Face in the game, even eclipsling a bard in that role. My Fey Wanderer at level 5 had a +9 Deception, +12 Persuasion, +9 Intimidation, and +6 on all other Charisma checks along with Guidance on top of that.

2. Beguiling Twist: This makes the Ranger a force throwing around Charms and Frightened. It works best with both another caster in the party focused on those conditions, but the Ranger can "go it alone" by picking up Cause Fear through Fey Touched. This is an extremely powerful ability if you lean into it because every time an enemy makes a save you twist it on to another. Also after the twist concentration goes away allowing you to cast another concentration spell.

3. Fey Reinforcements: This allows concentration-free summon Fey, meaning you can spam them. They also get a Bonus action charm every turn which you can use to trigger Beguiling Twist on a save against that charm. This is arguably the most OP thing I have seen in combat period because of how it dramatically changes action economy.

Add in Charm Person and Dispel Magic through your subcclass and this plays very, very different. The last Fey Wanderer I played into 16th level rarely used the attack action at all. She spent most of her turns summoning Fey or casting Cause Fear, Charm Person, Dispel Magic or an offensive Ranger spell and being a control caster.



Sure but it is the abilities you use that matter in terms of how you play. All Paladins have divine

Yes she had all the class mechanics - extra attack and a fighting style (Druidic Warrior), Primal Explorerer, Nature's veil, Favored Foe etc, but She was mostly a caster by this time and did not often use those abilities (except for Nature's Veil).

All this tells me is that I was correct and you just PLAYED your ranger differently. It was not actually much more different mechanically(mechanics available to you) than any other ranger.

It's okay to play your ranger very differently, but I'm not going to be convinced that just because you chose not to use a mechanic, that the mechanic wasn't part of your ranger. It was there for you to use any time you felt like.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

The ranger you cited was played different from "standard" rangers, but was still mechanically mostly the same as every other ranger. The class abilities are the class abilities. Subclasses only vary that a little bit.

At 20th level a ranger has 19 abilities. Only 4 of which come from subclass. That means that around mechanically your ranger was 80% the same as every other ranger out there.

Feat selection can change things too

 

[Maxperson]

Feat selection can change things too

Sure, but I don't count optional rules when discussing broad game differences since they cant be counted on to be in any given game. Plus, those really don't have anything to do with the class. As rangers they will still be around 80% the same no matter what subclass is chosen.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Sure, but I don't count optional rules when discussing broad game differences since they cant be counted on to be in any given game. Plus, those really don't have anything to do with the class. As rangers they will still be around 80% the same no matter what subclass is chosen.

Never mind, I always forget you and so many stipulations when you argue something.

 

[Maxperson]

Never mind, I always forget you and so many stipulations when you argue something.

One stipulation(lack of optional rules) when discussing what the game does generally, isn't "so many" and is pretty much required to have a discussion like this. You cant count on any option being optioned into the game. Once you allow options in, very few tables will look the same and the differences will make discussion difficult.

Edit: Since house rules are also options, allowing in options also allows in house rules.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

One stipulation(lack of optional rules) when discussing what the game does generally, isn't "so many" and is pretty much required to have a discussion like this. You cant count on any option being optioned into the game. Once you allow options in, very few tables will look the same and the differences will make discussion difficult.

Edit: Since house rules are also options, allowing in options also allows in house rules.

I consider pretty much all rules optional, so I start with the assumption all tables are different

Also, I came into this conversation in the middle and I shouldn’t have - sorry!

Edit: so if there is an optional rule for a rule that means the default is optional too. You add house-rules on top of that (which for me is the heart of D&D) and the default is all rules are optional. So not considering optional rules is not an option

 

[ECMO3]

All this tells me is that I was correct and you just PLAYED your ranger differently. It was not actually much more different mechanically(mechanics available to you) than any other ranger.

It was because the mechanics availabel through subclass are unique and not available to any other character at all and those were the mechancis I used in play. Further a different subclass or even class could not be played that way.

To provide another example - all Paladins are proficient in Longbows and Leather Armor. That does not mean all Paladins are going use Longbows or wear Leather Armor, even though they get the "Mechanics" to be effective with those things and a Paladin using a Longbow as his primary weapon is abnormal. Yet they all get the mechanics to do it effectively!

It's okay to play your ranger very differently, but I'm not going to be convinced that just because you chose not to use a mechanic, that the mechanic wasn't part of your ranger. It was there for you to use any time you felt like.

But you are limited in actions and being available does not mean being used and subclass abilities are usually unique.

I had lots of jhigh level spells available on my Bladesinger, but False Life is usually what I used her high level slots for, and while that is available to any Wizard and to several other classes, it was her extremely high AC due to bladesong and her ability to mitigate damage through Song of Defense that made such a use of false life effective.

 

[Maxperson]

It was because the mechanics availabel through subclass are unique and not available to any other character at all and those were the mechancis I used in play. Further a different subclass or even class could not be played that way.

Right. 20ish% different due to subclass. Just like every other ranger subclass. All rangers will be 80ish% the same and the subclass will vary it a bit.

But you are limited in actions and being available does not mean being used and subclass abilities are usually unique.

Not used still =/= not available to you. Your personal choices don't change the 80ish% number. It can't.

I had lots of jhigh level spells available on my Bladesinger, but False Life is usually what I used her high level slots for, and while that is available to any Wizard and to several other classes, it was her extremely high AC due to bladesong and her ability to mitigate damage through Song of Defense that made such a use of false life effective.

And yet you could have walked around just casting lots of spells like very other wizard. Your personal choices affected how you PLAYED the wizard, but did not make it very different from every other wizard mechanically.