D&D (2024) How should the Swordmage be implemented in 1DnD?

[DammitVictor]

I really feel like we are sorely missing the "two thirds" caster concept from 3.PF-- the Bard/Magus progression between the Paladin/Ranger and the full casters.

I wanted the 3.5 Warmage to be more like the PF Magus, and vice versa.

My crack at a 5e version would be d8 HD, sort of Paladin/Warlock half-spellcasting, CON/INT, martial weapons and light armor. Fighting Style at 3rd, Extra Attack at 6th, elemental smite (as Paladin, d4 of fire/cold/lightning/thunder/acid, plus improved smite at 11th). Subclasses would look something like Accelerist/Swiftblade, heavy armor plus abjuration, elocater/teleportation specialist, dragon disciple.

What I mean by Paladin/Warlock casting is half-spellcasting, but you get one-half your PB in pact magic slots of your (Paladin) highest spell level per short rest, and maybe something like a much more limited form of mystic arcanum.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Level Up has a Warden archetype for the Ranger. https://a5e.tools/rules/warden Kind of so-so IMO. Was the UA Warden for 5e any better looking?

https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf

It was named the primeval guardian, and was insanely tanky. I seem to remember it scored pretty badly though.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

What characters from fiction do people consider to be swordmages? Of the top of my head I can think of:

Geralt - The Witcher
Eragorn - Inheritance Cycle
The Toa - Bionicle
Spellswords - The Elder Scrolls
Death Knights - WoW
Rand al'Thor - Wheel of time

Characters which could be swordmages, but I think they could be better done by other classes
Jedi - Star Wars (arguably monk does the concept better)
Sabriel - Old Kingdom Series (arguably would be a bard)
Khaladin - Stormlight Series (I think this is the only character I've ever seen in fiction which I'd actually call a Hexadin).

 

[mellored]

Then you aren’t understanding the issue around bounded accuracy.

Both editions are
Proficiency bonus + stat + magic weapon bonus.

The difference is
4e Proficiency went to +15, stat to +10, and item to +5.
5e Proficiency went to +6, stat to +5, and item to +3.

Nothing specifically about the Swordmage went beyond the normal accuracy.

You realize how stupidly OP that ability is for 5e, right? Any zone based effect you can continually put an enemy back in as long as they can’t move more than 100ft in a round. As written there’s no stopping it. No concentration, no line of sight requirements, no outs. Then as written it’s an at will ability….

That's true. Not stupidly OP (see simulacrum), but Disadvantage is a lot stronger than the 4e mark. So let's drop disadvantage, and only lasting a turn.

But I'll make it more flexible. You get to choose any Aegis each turn.


Aegis
As a bonus action, choose a creature within 10' and select one of the following Aegis. Until the start of your next turn, when they perform a hostile action that does not include you as a target, you can use your reaction to gain it's effect.

Ensnarement: after the hostile action, you teleport them to an adjacent space.
Shielding: reduce the damage of the hostile action by 1d8+your Swordmage level.
Assault: teleport adjacent to the target and make a single melee attack.

Or something similar.

 

[CreamCloud0]

What characters from fiction do people consider to be swordmages? Of the top of my head I can think of:

Geralt - The Witcher
Eragorn - Inheritance Cycle
The Toa - Bionicle
Spellswords - The Elder Scrolls
Death Knights - WoW
Rand al'Thor - Wheel of time

Characters which could be swordmages, but I think they could be better done by other classes
Jedi - Star Wars (arguably monk does the concept better)
Sabriel - Old Kingdom Series (arguably would be a bard)
Khaladin - Stormlight Series (I think this is the only character I've ever seen in fiction which I'd actually call a Hexadin).

this reference might not land for some but i think the elemental powered-up weapon abilities from kirby star allies are really spot on for the kinds of things i think a swordmage should be capable of, in the game adding one of fire, wind, water, ice or lightning to your weapon causes it's attacks to become empowered with different changes based on the element applied to it, fire is more powerful, wind improves your movement or blows enemies about, water causes more splash(heh) damage and so on

but that fundamental idea of weapon attack+secondary elemental effects is really what nails the swordmage concept for me.

 

[tetrasodium]

this reference might not land for some but i think the elemental powered-up weapon abilities from kirby star allies are really spot on for the kinds of things i think a swordmage should be capable of, in the game adding one of fire, wind, water, ice or lightning to your weapon causes it's attacks to become empowered with different changes based on the element applied to it, fire is more powerful, wind improves your movement or blows enemies about, water causes more splash(heh) damage and so on

but that fundamental idea of weapon attack+secondary elemental effects is really what nails the swordmage concept for me.

Big problem there. 5e got rid of monsters commonly having elemental/physical resist and vulnerability in a way that was meaningful to damage type choices. All you need now is "not nonmagical bludgeon piercing or slashing"

 

[mellored]

Big problem there. 5e got rid of monsters commonly having elemental/physical resist and vulnerability in a way that was meaningful to damage type choices. All you need now is "not nonmagical bludgeon piercing or slashing"

I expect the "resistance to nonmagical" stuff will go away. And hopefully make use of more damage types.

But even without it, you can have an "elemental" effect.

Attack + slowing cold.
Attack + stunning lightning.
Attack + acid AC penalty.
Attack + pushing thunder
Attack + Blinding radiant
Attack + extra fire damage

Though half of those are already smite spells.

 

[tetrasodium]

I expect the "resistance to nonmagical" stuff will go away. And hopefully make use of more damage types.

But even without it, you can have an "elemental" effect.

Attack + slowing cold.
Attack + stunning lightning.
Attack + acid AC penalty.
Attack + pushing thunder
Attack + Blinding radiant
Attack + extra fire damage

Though half of those are already smite spells.

No you can't really have an "elemental' effect" like that because it's just begging for some kind of conflict that reprehensibly dumps the GM on the wrong end of "☆wink☆ ☆wink☆ 'ask' ☆nudge☆ ☆nudge☆ your GM".

As to what wotc could do with the 2025 mm... Nothing in the UA stuff we've seen indicates that there will be significant changes and they have been pretty clear that the inerrant simple=good=best mantra will be maintained at any cost making the idea of adding depth or complexity needed for meaningful change a bit too dubious for that level of optimism at this point.

 

[Corinnguard]

I'd like to see a 5e Swordmage that fills the same role as it had in 4e; a defender that has actual class features to discourage monsters from targeting the party squishies.

What's more discouraging, an arcane striker or an arcane defender?

 

[Corinnguard]

https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf

It was named the primeval guardian, and was insanely tanky. I seem to remember it scored pretty badly though.

Okay. I saw the Primeval Guardian conclave on dnd5ewikidot.com sometime ago. I didn't know that it was the 5e take on 4e's Warden class.

This website also has a spell-less version of the Ranger class in it's UA section.