D&D General Ravenloft: Monsters vs Darklords

[DEFCON 1]

People are born in the domain though as well. And Falkovnia has one of the larger populations of the domains (the second largest settlement is located there). However I doubt they thought through the numbers here and I am sure if you crunched them realistically, you could find problems in Ravenloft (also it is generally a lower population setting than most other settings).

Oh believe me, I'm right there with you. I would never bother trying to justify the "reality" of anything within Ravenloft, as there's no possible way to rectify everything there. None of it makes a lick of "realistic" sense, LOL.

So I think Perkins' idea of the soulless was just one way in trying to indeed make a possible sense of a senseless situation. But as is usual, most people never even thought about it and didn't care, some people appreciated the attempt at explaining things, and some people got pissed off at how things "got changed". There's really no winning there.

I sort of see Perkins' invention of the "soulless" in Ravenloft to be along the same lines as Rob Zombie's "tragic backstory" he gave to Michael Myers in his Halloween reboot-- something that tries to give an answer to a question that few people probably cared about asking, and in some ways reduces the mystery and thus the tension of the situation for those who are observing it.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Why? What's the value in anyone in the world not having a soul? What benefit, either in setting or play, is gained?

This question is answered in the 5e Ravenloft books. The 10% of people in Ravenloft that do have souls are cursed to be eternally reincarnated in new versions of themselves to relive the tragedy that caused their realm to enter Ravenloft. In a way, the 90% of people that don't have souls are the lucky ones, because they just have to experience life in Ravenloft a single time. Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft gives multiple suggestions to how you could use a reincarnation of Tatyana differently from the "basic" use in Curse of Strahd.

It's a narrative tool of separating the "important people" (Dark Lords, people important to their story, and the PCs) from the majority of peasants just there to populate the towns. It also provides a narrative tool for altering the main NPCs when replaying Curse of Strahd and other Ravenloft adventures.

Whether or not you like it is up to you. But there are reasons for this decision. I personally don't think it's perfect, especially with Curse of Strahd using "he doesn't have a soul" as an explanation for why Izek is a rapey psychopath.

 

[Remathilis]

We don't know this to be the case. If you think Ravenloft can create new souls for babies, then it is possible Ravenloft creates souls for people who inhabit a domain it just created. However we don't know where the souls come from. It is possible these are the spirit of the dead incarnating in Ravenloft (this would fit a purgatory or hell concept of ravenloft). The souls of people born in Ravenloft could similarly come from other worlds.

Do we know that souls can't leave after death?

I'm going to profess a small amount of ignorance in that it's been a long time since I've read older sources and a lot of info is jumbled in my head.

We don't know the extent to which the Dark Powers control life and death. It's been theorized (and it's outright stated in 5e) that souls are trapped in the Mists (thus not even death allows escape from this torment). We also do not know where the souls come from when someone is born in Ravenloft. A soul created and a soul stolen are effectively the same if the soul is stuck after death. And souls need to be stuck or committing sudoku (trigger word bypass) is the best way out of Ravenloft. (It also clearly is insinuated in Tatiana's rebirths, but you can argue that is a special fate for a specific person).

But ultimately the argument is kinda moot. You're essentially asking what type of Hell you want, one where the majority of people are "NPC theory" style soulless creatures bound to miserable tedious lives, or one where vibrant souls are snatched from their place in the multiverse and trapped in a nightmare prison where they will never escape and denied their final reward in the afterlife. Both are pretty bleak. Just pick your nihilism I guess.

 

[Shardstone]

Its a pretty big move that had no precedent in the setting prior to CoS. How does that not break fidelity.

But fair enough. It is my opinion that the soulless angle breaks fidelity with the setting. It is also my opinion that it is wrong and off-putting, and contributes to my strong negative feelings about 5e's interpretation of Ravenloft.

Balance at long last is returned to the force.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm going to profess a small amount of ignorance in that it's been a long time since I've read older sources and a lot of info is jumbled in my head.

We don't know the extent to which the Dark Powers control life and death. It's been theorized (and it's outright stated in 5e) that souls are trapped in the Mists (thus not even death allows escape from this torment). We also do not know where the souls come from when someone is born in Ravenloft. A soul created and a soul stolen are effectively the same if the soul is stuck after death. And souls need to be stuck or committing sudoku (trigger word bypass) is the best way out of Ravenloft. (It also clearly is insinuated in Tatiana's rebirths, but you can argue that is a special fate for a specific person).

I have less issue with the idea that souls are trapped in the mist. I do think it is better when Ravenloft doesn't answer these kinds of questions because maintaining a sense of mystery and allowing for multiple interpretations is usually better (and I find when fantasy settings get overly specific around this stuff, it just starts to feel off in general). But souls effectively being trapped in Ravenloft can absolutely work and connects smoothly to the idea that this some kind of hell or purgatory

But ultimately the argument is kinda moot. You're essentially asking what type of Hell you want, one where the majority of people are "NPC theory" style soulless creatures bound to miserable tedious lives, or one where vibrant souls are snatched from their place in the multiverse and trapped in a nightmare prison where they will never escape and denied their final reward in the afterlife. Both are pretty bleak. Just pick your nihilism I guess.

To be clear my biggest issue with the soulless thing is that it is basically NPC theory, which I think is a pretty dumb thing for a setting to be built around. It feels very video gamey to me. I could see it working in a very specific domain where that is the horror. But I don't really like the idea that Barovians or most inhabitants of Ravenloft are mostly soulless.

I would push back on the nihilism though. I think one of the cool things about Ravenloft not answering these questions is until the question is answered, whether it is nihilistic or hopeful is an open discussion. Ravenloft essentially has the problem of the evil that philosophers deal with in our own world. If it is hell, it is certainly bleak. But if it is more of a purgatory situation, then there is hope there, because the suffering and fear would just be part of refining peoples souls. But these aren't the only options. For all we know the dark powers are entirely deflatable and are just sadistic collectors of evil. And people do escape Ravenloft. Whatever explanation one subscribes to, I think hope is an important thing to maintain in Ravenloft. It is a setting that needs both darkness and light.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Oh believe me, I'm right there with you. I would never bother trying to justify the "reality" of anything within Ravenloft, as there's no possible way to rectify everything there. None of it makes a lick of "realistic" sense, LOL.

So I think Perkins' idea of the soulless was just one way in trying to indeed make a possible sense of a senseless situation. But as is usual, most people never even thought about it and didn't care, some people appreciated the attempt at explaining things, and some people got pissed off at how things "got changed". There's really no winning there.

I sort of see Perkins' invention of the "soulless" in Ravenloft to be along the same lines as Rob Zombie's "tragic backstory" he gave to Michael Myers in his Halloween reboot-- something that tries to give an answer to a question that few people probably cared about asking, and in some ways reduces the mystery and thus the tension of the situation for those who are observing it.

I think we basically agree here. I get the he was trying to explain something. I just think in a setting like Ravenloft the danger of over explaining is always there. But then for me, DoD was even a little too 'explainy' for Ravenloft, so my opinion might be more of an outlier (I much prefer some of the vagueness in the black boxed set)

The Rob Zombie thing definitely subtracted from the character for me

 

[Micah Sweet]

This question is answered in the 5e Ravenloft books. The 10% of people in Ravenloft that do have souls are cursed to be eternally reincarnated in new versions of themselves to relive the tragedy that caused their realm to enter Ravenloft. In a way, the 90% of people that don't have souls are the lucky ones, because they just have to experience life in Ravenloft a single time. Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft gives multiple suggestions to how you could use a reincarnation of Tatyana differently from the "basic" use in Curse of Strahd.

It's a narrative tool of separating the "important people" (Dark Lords, people important to their story, and the PCs) from the majority of peasants just there to populate the towns. It also provides a narrative tool for altering the main NPCs when replaying Curse of Strahd and other Ravenloft adventures.

Whether or not you like it is up to you. But there are reasons for this decision. I personally don't think it's perfect, especially with Curse of Strahd using "he doesn't have a soul" as an explanation for why Izek is a rapey psychopath.

Yeah, the fact that it changes the setting as a narrative tool is a big reason why I don't like it; I strongly dislike narrative rules in games.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The thing is, to people within religions, such things are Self Evident Truths. Expecting them not to write it is like expecting them them not to write about green grass. You can't write something else if it doesn't occur to you that something else is possible.

I am a little unclear what you mean here. Are you talking about Perkins or Hickman inserting their view of the soul into the game? I am just not clear on this

But on the broader point, fantasy writers put their own religious views aside to imagine another cosmology. I was raised religious, at first when I encountered fantasy I had a hard time imagining a world without one supreme deity, so something like Forgotten Realms was a little odd to me. But as I was exposed to more ideas, it made more and more sense. I can create a setting with different ways of conceiving of the soul. Being raised in a religion doesn't mean you don't get exposed to other ways of thinking about these things.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm going to profess a small amount of ignorance in that it's been a long time since I've read older sources and a lot of info is jumbled in my head.

We don't know the extent to which the Dark Powers control life and death. It's been theorized (and it's outright stated in 5e) that souls are trapped in the Mists (thus not even death allows escape from this torment). We also do not know where the souls come from when someone is born in Ravenloft. A soul created and a soul stolen are effectively the same if the soul is stuck after death. And souls need to be stuck or committing sudoku (trigger word bypass) is the best way out of Ravenloft. (It also clearly is insinuated in Tatiana's rebirths, but you can argue that is a special fate for a specific person).

But ultimately the argument is kinda moot. You're essentially asking what type of Hell you want, one where the majority of people are "NPC theory" style soulless creatures bound to miserable tedious lives, or one where vibrant souls are snatched from their place in the multiverse and trapped in a nightmare prison where they will never escape and denied their final reward in the afterlife. Both are pretty bleak. Just pick your nihilism I guess.

Is there a non-5e source that says all souls in Ravenloft are trapped there forever? I don't recall reading that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But on the broader point, fantasy writers put their own religious views aside to imagine another cosmology. I was raised religious, at first when I encountered fantasy I had a hard time imagining a world without one supreme deity, so something like Forgotten Realms was a little odd to me. But as I was exposed to more ideas, it made more and more sense. I can create a setting with different ways of conceiving of the soul. Being raised in a religion doesn't mean you don't get exposed to other ways of thinking about these things.

I wouldn't say that's a universal rule. Tolkien famously didn't, for example.