D&D 5E Fixing Challenge Rating

[Vaalingrade]

* 5e doesn't need minions thanks to Bounded Accuracy applying across levels rather than just within level as it did in 4e, but does need separate guidelines for both solos and legendary monsters (I'm still not sure if they should be merged)

It really does though, IMO. Like, the point of minions isn't just to be trash mobs, it's to pose an actual threat on attack while going away on one hit to create a feel to the combat. Which being mobbed by wolves that still take a whole turn to kill at level 20 just doesn't do.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It really does though, IMO. Like, the point of minions isn't just to be trash mobs, it's to pose an actual threat on attack while going away on one hit to create a feel to the combat. Which being mobbed by wolves that still take a whole turn to kill at level 20 just doesn't do.

Right, the WHOLE POINT of minions was to create low handling time mooks for the characters to mow through, but that could actually do a bit of damage or present a tactical challenge momentarily.

Using much lower level 5e monsters lacks these features. I mean, they MIGHT present a challenge in some situation, but handling them will be way too involved. I mean, having 20 4e minions on the field is nothing!

 

[Orange Mage]

The DMG multipliers really can't be accurate. 6 of those CR creatures is 8,400xp but adding 1 gives nearly 50% more xp, landing at 12,250? 1 more creature isn't going to make that much difference.

Agreed - tomedunn's reply covers that better than I could! It still seems to me that something like this is needed to allow for the action economy. The Challenge Points document does have a paragraph on "Managing the Action Economy", but that just recommends not using monsters with more actions than two or three times the numbers of PCs.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Right, the WHOLE POINT of minions was to create low handling time mooks for the characters to mow through, but that could actually do a bit of damage or present a tactical challenge momentarily.

But the whole minion concept of 4e was bad. If there was a formula that allowed to minionize monsters, it would be different. So you could actually use any monster as minions.

Like maybe: of a monster is 8 levels lower, they always do minimum damage and die with a single hit, but their attack bonus and AC increase by 8 points.

That would be a good minions rule without using space in the monster manual or causing dissociate effects.

So instead of designing high level minions, you design a mid level monster that is used as a minion later.

Using much lower level 5e monsters lacks these features. I mean, they MIGHT present a challenge in some situation, but handling them will be way too involved. I mean, having 20 4e minions on the field is nothing!

You could easily use my minion rule for 5e. If the monster is of a lower challenge rating, you never roll for damage and it has only 1 hp but a feature that they can use once: if reduced to 0 hp, they don't die if the damage dealt was lower than their original number of hp or so.

 

[Reynard]

It really does though, IMO. Like, the point of minions isn't just to be trash mobs, it's to pose an actual threat on attack while going away on one hit to create a feel to the combat. Which being mobbed by wolves that still take a whole turn to kill at level 20 just doesn't do.

I think that using swarm rules for minions is more satisfying than trying to figure out exactly how many hit points to give, say, the ogre minions to make them work right.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think that using swarm rules for minions is more satisfying than trying to figure out exactly how many hit points to give, say, the ogre minions to make them work right.

One.

One hit point is the right number of HP to make a minion work right.

 

[James Gasik]

One.

One hit point is the right number of HP to make a minion work right.

There's been a lot of complaints about minions having 1 hit point over the years. I find this interesting, since there was a time when NPC's and low-level monsters could easily have 1 hit point (or such a meager amount that it was irrelevant how many they had).

I mean, I think it was the 2e DMG that said a town blacksmith might have 1d8 hit points, and I routinely had 1st level Fighters with exceptional Strength and weapon specialization at tables who couldn't fail to kill an 8 hp character with a single attack.

I mean, if you want minions that have a chance to not die in one hit, you can give them a mechanic like that- zombie minions, as I recall, had a chance to not die. They couldn't take half or miss damage from attacks. You had to hit them. And while I heard complaints about "oh a Wizard stabbing them with a dagger could kill a 20th level minion", no Wizard was going to be doing that.

They would have scaled-up At-Will attacks backed by a high Intelligence and a magical implement, lol. But somehow, in a span of 20 years, we went from people thinking it was wonderful that a 1st level Wizard could be threatened by a house cat to not being able to wrap their heads around a cinematic concept like easily-dispatched mooks (seen in all forms of media everywhere).

But that was 4e's problem in a nutshell. It presented itself as a game, and took few steps to wrap it's mechanics in even a facade of verisimilitude. And no matter how unrealistic D&D is at it's core, a lot of people prefer the illusion.

A couple years back, there was an argument about minions that had the ability to automatically inflict damage due to an aura. There was nothing wrong with the ability, it was something other creatures did- the complaint was simply that there was no explanation for how it functioned! Were the zombies possessed by angry spirits of rage and hunger that lashed out at victims? Who knows, it doesn't say!

But if you said "a miasma of corrosive energies surround these zombies", it would have been all good.

I think most of the things that people took offense to with 4e came down to not having a coat of paint on them. Like if an ability said "your blows are so forceful, they can batter down the strongest defense", maybe nobody would have batted an eye at half damage on a miss for Martial attacks?

Back to minions, a DM I knew had elaborate house rules for minions that gave them extra hit points, as he felt that made more sense. When I pointed out to him that they still died in one hit every time, he got angry with me, saying "that's not the point!". Somehow, it wasn't the fragility of minions that bothered him, it was the exact mechanic that allowed them to be able to be easily dispatched.

 

[Reynard]

One.

One hit point is the right number of HP to make a minion work right.

Only if you want to have to futz around with a whole host of other issues tied to having 20 enemies on the map. Swarms solve that problem while allowing you to maintain the fantasy of endless hordes of ninjas crawling in the windows.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Only if you want to have to futz around with a whole host of other issues tied to having 20 enemies on the map. Swarms solve that problem while allowing you to maintain the fantasy of endless hordes of ninjas crawling in the windows.

What about the issue with a swarm's members not being able to actually move tactically? Somehow all those ninja can't enter through different parts of the map.

 

[Distracted DM]

I think that using swarm rules for minions is more satisfying than trying to figure out exactly how many hit points to give, say, the ogre minions to make them work right.

Or check out LU A5E's rules for squads. If you're thinking of making ogres a swarm, check out making them a squad first.