D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Yaarel]

I wager if the PHB elf is allowed to go print like that, they will be outclassed by their older elves until they too are reduced to a three bonus spells and an extra trait.

The UA Elf is significantly less powerful than the Mordenkainen Elves.

On the other hand, the UA Elf is better than the 2014 Players Handbook Elf.

Also, all the UA species balance with each other well.

 

[CreamCloud0]

so what is a better way to make them?
and how do we make it something we can used to make all other options good?

maybe we give them actual species abilities, wild huh? and maybe we increase the arbitrary species power budget across the board so that more features can be designed into species and subspecies so they can have more than a miniscule amount of design space to define themselves.

 

[Remathilis]

so what is a better way to make them?
and how do we make it something we can used to make all other options good?

In the 2014 PHB, high elves got a bonus cantrip, wood elves got a hide-in-wilderness ability, and drow elves got bonus spells. I would use that as the template. Give high elves bonuses some "magic-like" abilities that aren't bonus spells, or if you're absolutely creatively bankrupt make their teleport as least as good as the astral elf's rather than just misty step 1/day (plus spell slots). Give wood elves some nonmagical stealth and woodland abilities. Drow are fine as is. I just think its the most lazy way to dintinguish between the three PHB types of elves.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

maybe we give them actual species abilities, wild huh? and maybe we increase the arbitrary species power budget across the board so that more features can be designed into species and subspecies so they can have more than a miniscule amount of design space to define themselves.

That's fair. One issue with the species currently, as the ASIs effectively no longer are part of the species, is that there is very little left what defines the species mechanically. When they removed the ASIs, they should have increased the budget for other features. Though part of the problem is that they need to be balanced with humans, and it is hard to come up with features for humans as their whole point is that they're the baseline.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

In the 2014 PHB, high elves got a bonus cantrip, wood elves got a hide-in-wilderness ability, and drow elves got bonus spells. I would use that as the template. Give high elves bonuses some "magic-like" abilities that aren't bonus spells, or if you're absolutely creatively bankrupt make their teleport as least as good as the astral elf's rather than just misty step 1/day (plus spell slots). Give wood elves some nonmagical stealth and woodland abilities. Drow are fine as is. I just think its the most lazy way to dintinguish between the three PHB types of elves.

I don't think there is much meaningful difference between a spell like ability and a spell. And for consistency and ease of use if a similar spell already exists, it should be used.

 

[Remathilis]

That's fair. One issue with the species currently, as the ASIs effectively no longer are part of the species, is that there is very little left what defines the species mechanically. When they removed the ASIs, they should have increased the budget for other features. Though part of the problem is that they need to be balanced with humans, and it is hard to come up with features for humans as their whole point is that they're the baseline.

WotC was trying to keep power-creep in check, which has really tied their hands on what they can give.

 

[Remathilis]

I don't think there is much meaningful difference between a spell like ability and a spell. And for consistency and ease of use if a similar spell already exists, it should be used.

So let me give you an example.

An astral elf can teleport 30 ft as a bonus action. They can do this prof-mod per day. But this is not a spell, so they can teleport and then cast a leveled spell. Their teleport cannot be countered and has no VSM components either.

Contrast to a high-elf using their misty step species spell. They can do that once for free, after that is a 2nd level spell slot to do it again. On the turn they use it, they can't cast any other spell but a cantrip, and the misty step can be countered with counterspell or stopped in the high-elf is silenced or restrained.

So at 5th level, the astral elf can teleport 3/day for free with no restrictions, while the high elf can do it once as a spell before burning their spell slots to do it again. In fact, the astral elf beats the 24 high-elf at most everything: the both get a bonus cantrip, (the AE is limited to one of three choices, the HE is the wizard list and mutable), the AE teleport is better than HE's Misty step in every possible way, and the AE gets a floating bonus tool/weapon AND Skill proficiency per day. The HE? Detect Magic. 1/day.

Swing and a miss.

Now, maybe WotC will revise AE to become lineage that grants sacred flame, guiding bolt, and misty step 1/day plus they can swap a skill prof out once per day to make them as lame as the HE in the PHB, but I'd much rather they made the HE as cool as the AE is.

 

[CreamCloud0]

That's fair. One issue with the species currently, as the ASIs effectively no longer are part of the species, is that there is very little left what defines the species mechanically. When they removed the ASIs, they should have increased the budget for other features. Though part of the problem is that they need to be balanced with humans, and it is hard to come up with features for humans as their whole point is that they're the baseline.

i think they could find stuff to work with, even if they're 'the baseline' humans also represent great versatility, the extra feat is well appreciated, but you can also give them things like extra proficiencies skill or otherwise, expertise, fighting styles, languages, there's potential there.

 

[Mecheon]

High Elves and Wood elves aren't any more biologically distinct than my proposed divisions of Halflings and Dwarves..

I mean, in the wider fantasy sphere, high elves being biologically distinct from wood elves is a reasonably common idea. D&D even went that hard with Eladrin back in 4E

Anywho, just on some earlier comments though, in terms of dwarves? The only time I have ever seen the Hill/Mountain split done well was Warcraft of all places.

Your Warcraft mountain dwarf, AKA Bronzebeard dwarf, is your average dwarf. Lives in a mountain, good at smithing, you know the tropes. Through in some archaeology and technology (moreso on the steam and gunpowder side, not as explosive as goblins nor as electricity based as gnomes) there as well. Pretty simple
Your Warcraft hill dwarf however are the Wildhammers. They live out in nature and are linked to it enough that the old RPG books gave them not only shamans (Generally a Horde-exclusive class that only those tied to to the elements could have, not even noted close-to-nature Night Elves got that) but also druids. The two most nature based classes in the whole RPG and these dwarves got 'em. These were dwarves that close to nature they form a bond with the local gryphons, and can then go and channel the power of the storm into hammers and throw those hammers at people. A very distinct thing from the other

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So let me give you an example.

An astral elf can teleport 30 ft as a bonus action. They can do this prof-mod per day. But this is not a spell, so they can teleport and then cast a leveled spell. Their teleport cannot be countered and has no VSM components either.

Contrast to a high-elf using their misty step species spell. They can do that once for free, after that is a 2nd level spell slot to do it again. On the turn they use it, they can't cast any other spell but a cantrip, and the misty step can be countered with counterspell or stopped in the high-elf is silenced or restrained.

So at 5th level, the astral elf can teleport 3/day for free with no restrictions, while the high elf can do it once as a spell before burning their spell slots to do it again. In fact, the astral elf beats the 24 high-elf at most everything: the both get a bonus cantrip, (the AE is limited to one of three choices, the HE is the wizard list and mutable), the AE teleport is better than HE's Misty step in every possible way, and the AE gets a floating bonus tool/weapon AND Skill proficiency per day. The HE? Detect Magic. 1/day.

Swing and a miss.

Now, maybe WotC will revise AE to become lineage that grants sacred flame, guiding bolt, and misty step 1/day plus they can swap a skill prof out once per day to make them as lame as the HE in the PHB, but I'd much rather they made the HE as cool as the AE is.

I get that the astral elf ability is more powerful, but I am not sure that means it is better design. I still think it is a bit awkward, that they have a magical ability that does exactly what misty step does, but for some reason isn't misty step. To me it is more coherent if such ability is represented by the spell, though of course how many times it can be used could be scaled up if we wanted it to be more powerful.