D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Maxperson]

I was talking about 3e that can be a godless philosophy, and 5e 2024 that derives Divine magic from the Astral plane.

It helps to say when you're talking about something from a future book that may not come out with the same wording. They change things in-between playtesting and release, so that may no longer be true when the 5.5e PHB comes out.

This by the way is from the December cleric write up for 5.5e.

"Clerics draw power from the realms of the gods and harness it to work miracles. Blessed by a deity, a pantheon, or another immortal entity, a Cleric can reach out to the divine magic of the Outer Planes—where gods dwell—and channel that energy to bolster people and to battle foes."

Almost no gods dwell on the Astral Plane. It seems that they get their power from the plane of their god(s) in the playtest docs.

 

[Umbran]

Because that's not enough, that's why. The paladin doesn't get power because he said some words. He gets it because he has great faith and conviction in those words. The power from from the faith in the oath, not the words of the oath.

And that's sometimes a thing that we modern, cynical people have trouble grasping. We can understand being born with an ability - we see folks born with great talents. We can understand working and studying to learn abilities. We can understand making a deal to get power. These are all things with real-world analogs.

And, for most clerics, we probably don't think of them as all that much different from warlocks. Many of us probably think of it as sort of transactional, that a cleric's "devotion" is more about "providing service" than it is a deep, identity-influencing belief.

The idea that we can make things happen if we believe in them enough, is a thing we commonly tell children, but for which we see very little verifiable examples of it actually working. We buy into it as kids, but then get disabused of the notion by empirical evidence through experience. We learn instead that it is is the effort of believers that yields results, not the belief itself. We eventually learn to scoff at deeply-held beliefs, in a sort of self-protection.

So, it may be that paladins (and clerics of philosophies) are perhaps some of the most truly fantastic elements in our fantasies.

 

[pawsplay]

That's interesting and I like that they did that, but not really in line with 5e's cleric write up. That's more like 2e? 3e? Where you could be a cleric of a pantheon.

The 3e Forgotten Realms guides said everyone needs to have a deity, or they get sucked into the wall. All clerics, druids, and paladins had deities. But AFAIK that's the only setting in the only edition that ever strictly required it.

 

[DarkCrisis]

The bolded is wrong. Paladins gain no power by believing in themselves. They gain it by faith/belief in the rightness of their oath's tenets. It doesn't require a god, but it does require faith in something outside of themselves.

"They believe in the words they say" IE Free magic for really really meaning it

 

[TwoSix]

Clerics do not in fact need a god.

In the newest Faerun novel, the cleric of the group has no specific god but instead calls on different gods in the moment. Making promises or something.

I like that idea a whole lot.

It strongly suggests the idea that clerical magic is not a grant, rather, it's a spellcasting tradition on its own that allows one to be a mediator between men and gods.

 

[Umbran]

"They believe in the words they say" IE Free magic for really really meaning it

If you think that magic is "free" you are not considering what belief on that level entails.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And that's sometimes a thing that we modern, cynical people have trouble grasping. We can understand being born with an ability - we see folks born with great talents. We can understand working and studying to learn abilities. We can understand making a deal to get power. These are all things with real-world analogs.

And, for most clerics, we probably don't think of them as all that much different from warlocks. Many of us probably think of it as sort of transactional, that a cleric's "devotion" is more about "providing service" than it is a deep, identity-influencing belief.

The idea that we can make things happen if we believe in them enough, is a thing we commonly tell children, but for which we see very little verifiable examples of it actually working. We buy into it as kids, but then get disabused of the notion by empirical evidence through experience. We learn instead that it is is the effort of believers that yields results, not the belief itself. We eventually learn to scoff at deeply-held beliefs, in a sort of self-protection.

So, it may be that paladins (and clerics of philosophies) are perhaps some of the most truly fantastic elements in our fantasies.

As much I don't like the concept, this was actually very insightful take on it. And yeah, perhaps that indeed is at least a part of the reason why I have trouble with it; the rational part of my brain often struggles with more whimsical (one might say childish) aspects of fantasy. I am an overthinker and I want fantasy to make sense, dammit!

 

[DarkCrisis]

If you think that magic is "free" you are not considering what belief on that level entails.

Free Continental Breakfast for EVERYONE. How much more can I swear to?

 

[Yaarel]

It helps to say when you're talking about something from a future book that may not come out with the same wording. They change things in-between playtesting and release, so that may no longer be true when the 5.5e PHB comes out.

This by the way is from the December cleric write up for 5.5e.

"Clerics draw power from the realms of the gods and harness it to work miracles. Blessed by a deity, a pantheon, or another immortal entity, a Cleric can reach out to the divine magic of the Outer Planes—where gods dwell—and channel that energy to bolster people and to battle foes."

Almost no gods dwell on the Astral Plane. It seems that they get their power from the plane of their god(s) in the playtest docs.

There are dominions in the Astral Sea with and without gods, unaligned, that a Cleric might connect with.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I'm curious about how such an oath inspired by great faith, meets this...

"Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil."

I mean, innkeepers unite against the forces of darkness!!!!!!11111!!!

And of course...

"A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work."

That TOTALLY says innkeeper to me.

Someone swearing an oath to themself is selfish and greedy, not someone swearing an oath of conviction to stand against evil.

"some people believe it is only great power that can keep evil in check, but that is not what i have found, it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep darkness at bay, small acts of kindness and love" - gandalf

it might not be in a grand or flashy way but i can believe that you could have a humble innkeeper as a paladin fighting against the dark, who believes in keeping people's souls bright and strong through a well seasoned meal cooked with homely care, a friendly conversation around the firepit and providing a soft, warm bed on a cold night.