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D&D 5E People don't read the 5E DMG for a reason

Stormonu

Legend
I think the DMG suffers from the Jack of All Trades issue - it's supposed be a DM's primer, a toolbox for adventure creation and optional game components and a host of reference charts & information (such as magic items). It's either going to have to drop something or be a (much) bigger book. I kind of hope it gets chunked up to 1E AD&D size myself. Though I wish they could move magic items to the PHB, for example, but its already cluttered by a hunk of spells. Or rearrange the books into PHB, MM, DMG and a "Treasures & Spells" book. God knows the latter has enough stuff for a book of its own, but buying 3 books as is already is a bit of an annoyance - and going the PF2 way is madness with trying to stuff 3/4 of the game into one book.

<Edit> On that last thought, maybe just a PHB and combine the DMG & MM into one book?
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
It's honestly really interesting to me how the discourse on this has changed over the past 4-5 years.

I was straight-up told, on this very forum, IIRC in the same year as this thread originally started, that:
(1) the DMG was perfectly fine, and perhaps even among the best DMGs ever written;
(2) the DMG has absolutely no need whatsoever to be a guide, which could instead be handled by Reddit/YouTube/social media in general;
(3) to alter the existing 5e DMG so that it would in fact guide new DMs would seriously damage the book.

I find the near-180 turnaround of the general response really quite fascinating.
 

R_J_K75

Legend
What if we just get rid of the Dungeon Masters Guide? When we tell folks you need to read this book (DMG) in its entirety to run the game that seems like a barrier we can remove. Give the Main rulebook a couple of chapters on running the game, throw treasures in with the monster manual and call it good.
I was having a conversation yesterday with my neighbor's younger brother. Hès 20 y/o I believe, has only played 5E. From what I gather the majority of his gaming has been at local game stores and those experiences weren't too good for him, and he's played with his two brothers with the oldest (my neighbor) DMing. I can say from the playing with said DM he has a lot of room for improvement. As we have been playing together for a while, I was the one who encouraged my neighbor to DM, which I give him credit for doing but I always got the impression that he never read the DMG, and just watched some MCDM videos, among others, hell I'm not even sure he read the PHB or MM in its entirety as his style of running games is rather railroady and disjointed. Getting back to yesterday's conversation I mentioned that for a few reasons I decided to bow out of a monthly 5E game we were planning, him and his two brothers, myself and two other people. I said to him, "let's face it your brother and I are going to bear the brunt of the DM duties, but I've always thought that everyone in a group should try their hand DMing". His response was something to the effect that he could never do it, it's too much to remember and keep track of at the table. I'd be hard pressed to believe he even owns a DMG let alone read it.

My personal opinion is that the core books need to be shortened and reconfigured somehow to a new standard that is not the traditional three. Instead of people actually reading the cores books IME from playing with some younger players over the past 6-7 years, I think a lot of people are taking shortcuts and relying too much on YouTube advice, actual play videos, and digital tools like D&DB instead of actually reading and digesting the rules in the core books. I think there is a lot to be said for prospective DMs being turned off by the assumption that they need to read a ~300 pg DMG, so they don't bother. The only way WotC will get me playing 5E again is if the 2024-2025 revisions are so well re-written and re-organized that it makes the game much easier to teach, run and play.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
It's honestly really interesting to me how the discourse on this has changed over the past 4-5 years.

I was straight-up told, on this very forum, IIRC in the same year as this thread originally started, that:
(1) the DMG was perfectly fine, and perhaps even among the best DMGs ever written;
(2) the DMG has absolutely no need whatsoever to be a guide, which could instead be handled by Reddit/YouTube/social media in general;
(3) to alter the existing 5e DMG so that it would in fact guide new DMs would seriously damage the book.

I find the near-180 turnaround of the general response really quite fascinating.
Confirmation bias & cult of the new were no longer able to maintain their adamant certainly & spin once wotc folks like Crawford and Perkins straight out talked about how the 2014 dmg had issues.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I think the DMG suffers from the Jack of All Trades issue - it's supposed be a DM's primer, a toolbox for adventure creation and optional game components and a host of reference charts & information (such as magic items). It's either going to have to drop something or be a (much) bigger book.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say when I called it a "dysfunctional book design".

Honestly I don't expect much to change because the whole D&D community is too married to the "core 3" tradition, but that structure doesn't allow much room for improvement.

At least I would remove everything too basics from all books, and put it into the "Basic Box" product. Think anything that you generally need to be told only once, and most people buying core books already know from other sources. I really don't think the DMG should ever be thought of a beginner's book, possibly a "beginner DM"'s book but not an absolute beginner. Even the beginner DM reads the PHB first. Someone wanting to become a sports referee doesn't need to be told in the referee's course that the game is about throwing a ball into something and that the team with a higher score wins... if you don't even know that already, go watch some match first.

Moving topics between the 3 books is always possible but never easy. I think they tried to move magic items to the PHB in 4e? If you do that, it significantly steers the whole game one step towards players' entitlement, which is not good for everyone's preferences. Also, usually the PHB is already packed with important stuff, not easy to find room there at all. If you move magic items to the MM (I would personally like the idea) instead you're going to end up either with a much larger book, or have to cut 1/3 of the monsters, or dimish the information or the artwork about each monster.

It's just an idea, but if I could change the DMG layout, I would also put "running the game" upfront, expanding this part to at least 1/3 of the book (not 1/10 as it is now), organize it a bit more like the 3.0 DMG which had sections on how to handle each specific tricky part of the game like invisibility, magic resistances, getting lost etc., and these were already visible in the table of content on the first page, not buried in a confusing index at the end of the book. The best thing, would be to present each topic first from a RAW point of view (if there is any RAW, which doesn't have to be the case since this is not 3e anymore) and then present the DM with different ways to manage the situation in practice. I would write this whole "running the game" part of the DMG without assumptions on whether the DM uses publishes adventures, creates her own, or improvises everything at the table.

Only after the "running the game" part, I would have chapters on designing your own stuff or using variant mechanics, because only some DMs actually need these, while I would argue that every DM pretty much needs to run the game! But the 5e DMG starts on the wrong foot with its top-down worldbuilding guide, possibly giving people the impression that they have to know how to do it, which is not true. In fact, we usually acknowledge around here, that worldbuilding is mostly a futile activity that we do because we like doing it, but is almost never going to matter to our players. Designing adventures and encounters instead, that is generally more useful if you ask me, even if you use published adventures you might have to come up with something quickly when your PCs step out of the adventure's expectations; but here the main problem is that adventure design is a very wide topic that might require a whole course rather than a chapter in the book, which runs the risk of being so generic and thin as to be useless. I'd put NPC design under the same category, as it's more about the characters than their stats, but monsters design is probably even less common to do by a DM, partly because there's always a lot of monsters to choose from already, and partly because it carries some stigma of being too mathematical and prone to errors (in reality, it depends on the rules of the edition, it could be even quite easy in some games, but it matters a lot whether who writes about it in the DMG takes the approach of a rigid rules-based procedure versus staying rules-light).

Optional rules modules are certainly fun to have in a DMG, here the difficulty is choosing which ones to include, and which one to save for another book. I have my own preferences of course, but the only thing that bothers me about the 5e DMG is that it marks some stuff as "optional" in a way that makes you think that the rest is not optional, but there are even gaming groups who do not have the DMG, plus as the thread says many DMs have the DMG but didn't read it... it is a flaw of WotC game designers not realizing that many rules are optional by nature, such as for example those rules under Exploration and Social Interaction, because not everybody actually needs to have hard rules for these pillars of the game. The best advice the DMG can give, on the first page, is to treat an edition's core books and especially the DMG itself as a toolkit to make the game your own, but it's in vain if the rest of the DMG still talks to the DM as certain things are "must do".
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I was having a conversation yesterday with my neighbor's younger brother. Hès 20 y/o I believe, has only played 5E. From what I gather the majority of his gaming has been at local game stores and those experiences weren't too good for him, and he's played with his two brothers with the oldest (my neighbor) DMing. I can say from the playing with said DM he has a lot of room for improvement. As we have been playing together for a while, I was the one who encouraged my neighbor to DM, which I give him credit for doing but I always got the impression that he never read the DMG, and just watched some MCDM videos, among others, hell I'm not even sure he read the PHB or MM in its entirety as his style of running games is rather railroady and disjointed. Getting back to yesterday's conversation I mentioned that for a few reasons I decided to bow out of a monthly 5E game we were planning, him and his two brothers, myself and two other people. I said to him, "let's face it your brother and I are going to bear the brunt of the DM duties, but I've always thought that everyone in a group should try their hand DMing". His response was something to the effect that he could never do it, it's too much to remember and keep track of at the table. I'd be hard pressed to believe he even owns a DMG let alone read it.

My personal opinion is that the core books need to be shortened and reconfigured somehow to a new standard that is not the traditional three. Instead of people actually reading the cores books IME from playing with some younger players over the past 6-7 years, I think a lot of people are taking shortcuts and relying too much on YouTube advice, actual play videos, and digital tools like D&DB instead of actually reading and digesting the rules in the core books. I think there is a lot to be said for prospective DMs being turned off by the assumption that they need to read a ~300 pg DMG, so they don't bother. The only way WotC will get me playing 5E again is if the 2024-2025 revisions are so well re-written and re-organized that it makes the game much easier to teach, run and play.
I think that a pruning like that has nothing to do with what is needed. Somewhere between 3.5 & 5e* there was a shift in mindset that needs correcting and the way 5e shifts the work of a rules heavy system onto the GM in order to pretend that it's rules light for players probably has a lot to do with it. Professordm had a great video the other day talking about how nobody would consider it ok to regularly last minute blow off things like thanksgiving/Christmas dinner or birthday and wedding invite attendance without the involvement of things like a hospital but "I showed up, don't expect more from me" has become a mindset considered reasonable enough that simply bringing it up will often spark outrage and excuses when behaving that way without shame is considered reasonable for a critical mass of d&d players

*I'm ignoring 4e not excusing or damning it.
 

R_J_K75

Legend
I think that a pruning like that has nothing to do with what is needed. Somewhere between 3.5 & 5e* there was a shift in mindset that needs correcting and the way 5e shifts the work of a rules heavy system onto the GM in order to pretend that it's rules light for players probably has a lot to do with it.
On the face of it 5E seems like a rules light game, but really, it's not. As a DM it takes time to create adventures for sessions, know where to find rules and teach the game to new players. If a player shows up with the attitude, I'm here don't expect more, then you have to help them run their character, which I don't think is fair, and in most cases, I'll only do it for a short period of time with a new player. If they continually show up and have made no effort to learn at least the basic rules to run their PC and play the game they're not someone I want to play with. That's why I believe that if there were more smaller core books then players/DMs may be more inclined to read at least what they need to know.
Professordm had a great video the other day talking about how nobody would consider it ok to regularly last minute blow off things
Speaking of commitment, I've never asked for it 100%. But it seems pretty common for one or two players to cancel last minute and show up only when there is nothing else better going on. I set up our first session over a month ago and last week one person said they couldn't make it after already agreeing to play and everyone else wanted to reschedule to another day or cancel until another week. I decided it wasn't for me and didn't feel there was enough commitment to set aside time to play in or run this game. So, me and another friend decided that the 2 of us will run a Cthulhu Awakens game.

So, I can totally relate to what is said in that video you posted.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Confirmation bias & cult of the new were no longer able to maintain their adamant certainly & spin once wotc folks like Crawford and Perkins straight out talked about how the 2014 dmg had issues.
Oh, believe me, some people certainly did.

Consider, for example, when Mearls himself openly admitted he was disappointed with the Fighter because it failed to support Fighter flavor, and people came out of the woodwork to say that Mearls was outright wrong and the existing Fighter was great.

Aaaaand now we're seeing that satisfaction scores with things weren't as good as the boosters would like them to be, which is a major component of why we're getting 5.5e in the first place. Fighter (and in particular some of its subclasses) was a key component thereof.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
It's honestly really interesting to me how the discourse on this has changed over the past 4-5 years.

I was straight-up told, on this very forum, IIRC in the same year as this thread originally started, that:
(1) the DMG was perfectly fine, and perhaps even among the best DMGs ever written;
(2) the DMG has absolutely no need whatsoever to be a guide, which could instead be handled by Reddit/YouTube/social media in general;
(3) to alter the existing 5e DMG so that it would in fact guide new DMs would seriously damage the book.

I find the near-180 turnaround of the general response really quite fascinating.
Welcome to the internet?
 

Oofta

Legend
Oh, believe me, some people certainly did.

Consider, for example, when Mearls himself openly admitted he was disappointed with the Fighter because it failed to support Fighter flavor, and people came out of the woodwork to say that Mearls was outright wrong and the existing Fighter was great.

Aaaaand now we're seeing that satisfaction scores with things weren't as good as the boosters would like them to be, which is a major component of why we're getting 5.5e in the first place. Fighter (and in particular some of its subclasses) was a key component thereof.

Seems to me your seeing, or remembering, things you want to see or remember. I don't recall anyone saying the 2014 DMG was great. Someone somewhere might have, people have differing opinions. I personally like the fighter and it's still the most popular class so it seems to work out okay for a lot of people. At the same time, of course there is always room for improvement.
 

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