I'm fine with getting both. One for the player's actual thoughts on their character, the other for knowing the bits that are truly important to them (and which would be first in line to show up during the campaign.)
D&D 5E Help me understand & find the fun in OC/neo-trad play...
- Thread starter overgeeked
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W'rkncacnter
Hero
yeah, that would be a fine solution. @bloodtide doesn't seem to want to use it, though, so it's kind of moot.
but, hey, i did just @ him, so we'll see if i'm wrong.
Yeah, this can definitely be the case where the style of game can allow a selfish player to be selfish, all in the name of "playing the style." That's just like in earlier days where the Thief player would claim to be just "playing their character" when they would pickpocket their fellow party members.
Certain players just lack the self-confidence to play as part of a group and share the spotlight, always afraid they are going to be left behind if they don't do things to push their character to the forefront (oftentimes to the detriment of everyone else.) And that's when you just wish you could just take them lightly by the shoulders, look them in the eyes, and convince them of the truth... that playing with everyone else actually makes them more important and more a part of the group than trying to make themselves important (by stealing focus or doing things that separate them from the others, etc.).
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
First of all, I've never said "no gaming is better than bad gaming" in earnest. Ever. Secondly, I agree that all the things you mentioned are potential pitfalls of trad or classic play. And the answer to all of it for all styles is simply to keep trying to be better for your part, to listen to and dispense advice with your best judgement, and to separate yourself from any problematic element, player or GM, if it cannot be fixed or endured. For example, if you don't like a DM's "absolute power" in your game, try to fix it, endure it, or leave if the first two options don't work. And the same with spotlight-hogging players, or literally any other table problem.
Specific example context matters, your earlier point that frogreaver too issue with is with is presented as bit overly absolute.
Take these 2e quotes as an example of the first & most obvious examples from an edition known for being about as far into trad & "the GM is god" that ttrpgs have ever gone.
Although your DM has the rules for handling spell
research, there are some things you should know about how
to proceed. First and foremost, research means that you and
your DM will be working together to expand the game. This
is not a job he does for you! Without your input, nothing hap-
pens. Second, whatever your character researches, it cannot
be more powerful than the spells he is already able to cast.
If it is, you must wait until your character can cast spells of an
equal power. (Thus, as a 1st-level wizard, you cannot
research a spell that is as powerful as a fireball. You must
wait until your character can cast a fireball.) Finally, you will
have to be patient and willing to have your character spend
some money. He won’t create the spell immediately, as
research takes time. It also takes money, so you can expect
your DM to use this opportunity to relieve your character of
some of that excess cash. But, after all, how better for a spell-
caster to spend his money?
Knowing these things, you should first write up a descrip-
tion of the spell you want to create. Be sure to include infor-
mation on components, saving throws, range, duration, and
all the other entries you find in the normal spell listings. When
you give your DM the written description, tell him what you
want the spell to do. (Sometimes what you write isn’t really
what you mean, and talking to your DM is a good way to
prevent confusion.) After this, he will either accept or reject
your spell. This is his choice and not all DMs will have the
same answer. Don’t kick and complain; find out what changes
are needed to make the spell acceptable. You can probably
iron out the differences.
Once all these things are done, your character can research
the spell. Be ready for this to take some time. Eventually he
will succeed, although the spell may not do quite what he
expected. Your DM may revise the spell, perhaps reducing the
area of effect or damage inflicted. Finally, all you have to do is
name your spell. This should be something suitably pomp-
ous, such as “Delsenora’s Malevolent Steamroller.” After all,
you want something to impress the locals!
research, there are some things you should know about how
to proceed. First and foremost, research means that you and
your DM will be working together to expand the game. This
is not a job he does for you! Without your input, nothing hap-
pens. Second, whatever your character researches, it cannot
be more powerful than the spells he is already able to cast.
If it is, you must wait until your character can cast spells of an
equal power. (Thus, as a 1st-level wizard, you cannot
research a spell that is as powerful as a fireball. You must
wait until your character can cast a fireball.) Finally, you will
have to be patient and willing to have your character spend
some money. He won’t create the spell immediately, as
research takes time. It also takes money, so you can expect
your DM to use this opportunity to relieve your character of
some of that excess cash. But, after all, how better for a spell-
caster to spend his money?
Knowing these things, you should first write up a descrip-
tion of the spell you want to create. Be sure to include infor-
mation on components, saving throws, range, duration, and
all the other entries you find in the normal spell listings. When
you give your DM the written description, tell him what you
want the spell to do. (Sometimes what you write isn’t really
what you mean, and talking to your DM is a good way to
prevent confusion.) After this, he will either accept or reject
your spell. This is his choice and not all DMs will have the
same answer. Don’t kick and complain; find out what changes
are needed to make the spell acceptable. You can probably
iron out the differences.
Once all these things are done, your character can research
the spell. Be ready for this to take some time. Eventually he
will succeed, although the spell may not do quite what he
expected. Your DM may revise the spell, perhaps reducing the
area of effect or damage inflicted. Finally, all you have to do is
name your spell. This should be something suitably pomp-
ous, such as “Delsenora’s Malevolent Steamroller.” After all,
you want something to impress the locals!
Creating a magical item is much like
researching a new spell. The DM and the
player must cooperate and work together to
bring about the desired goal. However, there
are differences.
In magical item research, the desired goal
is usually well-known to both the player and
the DM. The player says, “Rupert wants to cre-
ate a potion of clairaudience.” The effect is
known; what must be done to create it isn’t.
Therefore, once the player has stated his
desire, the DM decides what materials, formu-
lae, spells, and rites must be acquired and/or
performed to create the item.
Once the DM knows this, the player can
proceed. He does not tell the player what
he needs to do! It is up to the player to dis-
cover the processes and steps required to
create a magical item, however small. He
may consult a sage, seek the guidance of a
higher level spellcaster, or even use spells to
call upon greater powers.
Even after learning what he must do, the
spellcaster may have to do further research
to learn the techniques required for each
step. All of this will cost the character time
and money, so his dedication and resources
must be substantial if he hopes to succeed.
The process of gathering the needed infor-
mation and materials is a grand excuse for
researching a new spell. The DM and the
player must cooperate and work together to
bring about the desired goal. However, there
are differences.
In magical item research, the desired goal
is usually well-known to both the player and
the DM. The player says, “Rupert wants to cre-
ate a potion of clairaudience.” The effect is
known; what must be done to create it isn’t.
Therefore, once the player has stated his
desire, the DM decides what materials, formu-
lae, spells, and rites must be acquired and/or
performed to create the item.
Once the DM knows this, the player can
proceed. He does not tell the player what
he needs to do! It is up to the player to dis-
cover the processes and steps required to
create a magical item, however small. He
may consult a sage, seek the guidance of a
higher level spellcaster, or even use spells to
call upon greater powers.
Even after learning what he must do, the
spellcaster may have to do further research
to learn the techniques required for each
step. All of this will cost the character time
and money, so his dedication and resources
must be substantial if he hopes to succeed.
The process of gathering the needed infor-
mation and materials is a grand excuse for
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I don't question that the books themselves do not support the idea that DMs in those games do not have absolute power and are expected to cooperate with, and genuinely respect the desires and requests of, their players.
I am simply saying that the idea that everyone agrees with that statement is demonstrably false, because I have been told point blank by multiple users on this very forum that DMs have "absolute power" (actual quote, used repeatedly, every effort I made to soften or add nuance to this was rejected, they really REALLY meant it) and that they genuinely really do believe that it is a <my way or the highway> situation.
Shockingly, the way the game has been played hasn't always reflected the rules/principles/advice in the books.
Not a Decepticon
Hero
So in other words, it's bad to change the story to fit the player character and the player's desire? What kind of backwards view of the game is this, where the game is there for the GM and players must be stopped from "messing it up"?
Clearly Neotrad is Bad Play, and the people who enjoy it must be exiled, or at least stopped; and clearly a thread where someone is asking for help understanding that enjoyment is the perfect place for people who don't understand the playstyle to denigrate it.
It is an option some players pick.
In Traditional Play a single player often has several characters they control in the form of Followers, Henchmen, Retainers and more. So having more then one character is common enough.
Still the point is many Traditional players will just game with it, and not just switch characters.
And while I will never say no Neo T players would just game with it, I doubt many would. After all the basis of OC/Neo T is the Single Character the player wants to play, and they don't want to play the character with any major drawbacks or effects.
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