D&D General Defining "New School" Play (+)

How does this square with 4e, which I would call a definitive "new school" game, being so gamist?
What do you mean by "gamist"?

As far as I can tell, 4e has been used for gamist RPGing (eg Balesir who used to post on these boards played relatively light gamist 4e); for simulationist (and in particular high-concept sim) RPGing (I think this would be the most common approach to 4e, just as it has been very common in D&D play more generally for the past 40 years); and for narrativist RPGing (see eg me, @Manbearcat, @darkbard, @AbdulAlhazred, @zakael19).

Yeah. 4e is New School. B/X is Old School. Both games would be considered incredibly gamist,* at least by those who can't move on, unlike @niklinna, Baker, and Edwards. (I also tend to love both games as probably some of the best D&D in terms of showcasing a clear and tight design vision as games.) However, how these two games approach "player challenge" as a game agenda differs.
Yes.

I mean, all "gamist" means - as used by Baker and Edwards to describe a RPG - is that the system supports competition-oriented play ("step on up"). Supposing that two "gamist" RPGs must be the same would be like assuming that roulette and field hockey must be the same, and appeal to the same sorts of people, just because both involve winning and losing.

For the record, I think that there is very little in common with the most enjoyable ways of playing 4e (which I've posted about plenty on these boards) and with the way that Moldvay presents the play of his Basic game.
 

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Every group has always played RPGs differently to the majority of other groups out there. However, I would say that compared to how it used to be in the 80's and 90's, these are the differences that I've seen now.

1. Session Zero.
We never used to do this. Everyone turned up on the night, rolled their characters and got on with it, regardless of what the campaign or adventure might have been about. People rolled up what they wanted to play and that was largely it. It's only since the Daggerheart play test earlier this year that my group have decided that actually, having a session zero was a great idea and want to do this in future.

2. Telling The Story.
Everyone's experiences will be different, but my experiences have always been that the group rolled up and played whatever campaign the DM had written/purchased/prepared. Not in a railroad sense but very much it was about telling the story that was presented. These days it seems that the players dictate what they do regardless, although I'd like to assume that coupled with a session zero the players know something of what's coming and will still play it while doing their own thing.

3. Player Agency.
These days it seems that the players dominate the control/flow of the game rather than the Dungeon Master. This ranges from players wanting/expecting to play the race/class...etc they want even if it doesn't fit the game world or the campaign that the GM is presenting, to guiding the game in the direction they want rather than telling the story (see #2 above). These are extreme examples that I have seen to be fair and most groups balance this out nicely. Player Agency just wasn't such a dominant aspect back in the old days.

4. Emphasis On Role-Playing.
Role-Playing has always been a part of the game and it's a fun aspect. However, RP often meant that you were just playing a role.... Ragnar the Barbarian or Pardu the Holy Man. These days it feels like players want more RP in sessions over the classic exploring, dungeon crawling and fighting monsters. That's a solid difference in Old and New School in my opinion.

Couple with that... I've noticed players of the current generation often take their role-playing to amateur dramatics levels. I think the older I've got, the more I prefer we just play the game and don't put on the silly accents.


Of all these, I'd say that Player Agency has been the biggest difference in games played now compared to the 80's and 90s, especially where D&D is concerned. However I think that White Wolf's World of Darkness games and a few others really started that trend and the emphasis on role-playing from the 90s.
 

Are we dating the "forks" from when the designs and play started, or from when they started to be "mainstream"?
I would date from when it becomes mainstream. Like, you could find seeds of the OSR back in Usenet posts in the 90s, and the introduction of the 3e SRD in 2000, but I wouldn't really consider the OSR to have consolidated until the releases of OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord.
 

I would date from when it becomes mainstream. Like, you could find seeds of the OSR back in Usenet posts in the 90s, and the introduction of the 3e SRD in 2000, but I wouldn't really consider the OSR to have consolidated until the releases of OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord.
Fair enough.

It's interesting to see - when the mainstream and an avant-garde encounter one another - which sort of sentiment/approach prevails.

As far as "indie" RPGing is concerned - which, as per my post, is a "movement" that can be traced back quite a way before PbtA became a recognised acronym - I think the more prevalent trend is for some of the technical innovations to be taken onboard, but for the system of play to remain broadly "trad-ish" rather than itself becoming "indie-fied".

I'm less sure about the OSR. Eg I don't know Shadowdark at all well enough to know if it should be considered a bowdlerisation, or the real thing.
 

Fair enough.

It's interesting to see - when the mainstream and an avant-garde encounter one another - which sort of sentiment/approach prevails.

As far as "indie" RPGing is concerned - which, as per my post, is a "movement" that can be traced back quite a way before PbtA became a recognised acronym - I think the more prevalent trend is for some of the technical innovations to be taken onboard, but for the system of play to remain broadly "trad-ish" rather than itself becoming "indie-fied".

I'm less sure about the OSR. Eg I don't know Shadowdark at all well enough to know if it should be considered a bowdlerisation, or the real thing.
I think like with music genres, any popularized innovation immediately enters into a conversation with other popular modes and hybridization starts.

Shadowdark was the most obviously popular of several games to recognize that the hallmarks of OSR play meshed well with the relatively lightweight and popular 5e chassis.
 

I have never heard of a DM empowering a spell because the player gave a fancy description.
Not a fancy description...a detailed one. It is fairly common.
And actually, most of the people who advocate for old school play have told me, in no uncertain terms, that a vague action is NOT acceptable. They need to know EXACTLY what I am doing, in case I trigger a trap.
True, vague actions are not acceptable in most OSG.
As for the type of wood... I know you keep caling it Hard Fun, but where is the challenge there? I either know that Birch wood burns longer and hotter than Hickory wood which is smokier or I don't. And if the DM demands I name the wood type while setting up camp... well, then I can just google the information and write down a few stock answers. The Hard Fun of googling random trivia and writing it down because I got punished for not knowing it? I don't see the appeal.
It is a different type of fun. This is the fun of using your real world knowledge in the game, and quite often getting an advantage or effect.

And I would note that googling information is a skill. A real life person player skill. It's not like you can type a couple words in google and get the perfect answer every time. Worse, google sticks to (paid) sites. And the more obscure the information, the harder it is to find. And a lot of information does not make it to the top of search results. So...it's not a magic oracle.
Of course they aren't, but a wizard with a 20 Intelligence IS a hyper-intelligent character. So, no one is allowed to play a 20 INT wizard unless they have a PhD? But they can play a fighter who is stronger, tougher and faster than them... because the lines are drawn haphazardly.
You can play any character you want. If you want to play a hyper intelligent wizard, and can role play that, no one will stop you.

They are not as haphazard as they seem. A real fighter knows things about fighting, combat and related things. The average player does not. The average player just has their fighter "attack!".

Every character class, background, specialization, and on has a ton of "real life common sense" that the character would know.....but the average player does not know.

A New School player with a 'criminal' character just uses the ability on their character sheet that "gives them advantage when contacting people in the criminal underworld". And then they just play the character in whatever way they want.

The Old School player with a criminal character will be deeply immersed in fictional criminal lore and culture and play their character accordingly.
But we role-play to be someone else. Not to just copy our own abilities onto the character sheet. Hence, why I keep saying that the goals of play are different.
Role playing and abilities are separate. It's near real life simulation vs only playing a game.

Which is what I keep trying to point out. Old School play wants to train the Real Life PLayers in Real Life Skills that they get better at each time they die.
Again, an Old School DM is not some sort of wise mystical teacher trying to make players better and more skilled.

It does depend on the players a lot. There is a group of people that play the game that possess an at least average level of common sense, wisdom, skill, intelligence, knowledge, and drive. This type of person does not need to be taught by a DM on such things.

Now, there is a group of people that play the game.......that have none of the above. So yes this type of person does need to be taught somethings...

In the new school, a player might say "Hey, my fighter was the commander of a squad of soldiers in the war, he might know a better way to engage with these enemies." and then roll, and the DM would give information. Like, "Well, you know that similar troops often kept mounts near the walls, so you might be able to spook them to cause a distraction" Because that is the sort of thing a veteran of many battles in a long war could reasonably know, but Timmy is a high school graduate whose only exposure to war is the occasional high level documentary,
This is the Major Flaw with this New School approach: You have the DM tell you what to do and then "feel" like your playing your character.
In the old school method, Timmy just can't play a veteran warrior until he had played enough DnD games to learn enough tricks, to start knowing these sort of tactics.
Not exactly. Just by playing a warrior character you don't just learn things about being a warrior. Though, yes you will learn a lot of common sense things you should already know, like a warrior is never far from their weapon. Though this is mostly for the that one group of people.
Do you not see how you are insulting people with this?
No. But I'm looking at it from the neutral perspective.

There are a million ways to have fun. No way of having fun is "better" then any other. Rock climbing is hard and floating in a pool is easy: but they are both valid ways to have fun.
I've caused players to cry from the emotional moments in my games. I've gotten everyone panicked and scrambling, looking for any advantage in a fight, because they saw death on the table. I've had players struggle for weeks to unravel a mystery. I've had them screaming for joy when they finally outmaneuvered their foes. My games are not soft and delicate things, light social gatherings that no one really cares about.
Well, we are talking about in general, not any one persons specific game.

Though I would wonder if your game is fully New School? Were your players really panicked that character death might happen...when that is uncommon in NS games? How did your players 'outmaneuver" their foes? It does not sound like they did it the NS way of "The DM tells the player what the character knows about how to out maneuver foes".
 

I think like with music genres, any popularized innovation immediately enters into a conversation with other popular modes and hybridization starts.
Deft substitution of "hybridization" for "bowdlerisation"!

In the neighbourhood (at least in my thinking): one thing both old old school and "indie" have in common is a view about the role of the player as crucial to establishing the events of play, even if the methods they use are very different (as per my post upthread about B/X vs 4e D&D).

Whereas at least one strand of "new school" clearly foregrounds the GM as the source of events, with the players' job being something closer to characterisation and "performance". Sometimes this player role is expressed using terms like "immersion" (ie the player should be imbibing and enjoying the fiction the GM presents) and sometimes in more social terms like "not being a problem player" or "getting on board with what the GM is offering" or even just via the notion of a "casual" player.
 

I don't spend a ton of time worrying about what is "new school" or "old school." And certainly any claim we can make in these regards is a generalization; there were groups at the dawn of D&D playing in ways that would be considered radically modern today, and groups today that love playing versions of D&D that hearken back to ye olde dungeon crawlers.

That said, here are my anecdotal observations about trends in play styles.

1. Shift to include more internal conflict. I started playing in 1979/80, and most games back then, most adventure modules, etc. seemed to be driven almost completely by external conflict: the players trying to stop some outside force that was doing a Bad Thing or directly threatening them. However, now there is a much greater emphasis on internal conflict. Plots still tend to be driven by external threats, but most characters have a backstory and motivations, and these often determine how the character reacts, and thus how the narrative develops.

I don't think you can overstate the impact of Vampire: the Masquerade, and it's extraordinary popularity in the 90s, on shifting RPGs, including D&D, towards more character driven, internal conflict oriented stories. Edit: and, of course, the explosive popularity of actual play shows, most notably Critical Role in changing the focus towards character-driven subplots.

2. Related to that, a shift towards (somewhat) more proactive storytelling. Actually, D&D arguably started with a very proactive structure, because it was originally conceived as contributing towards a larger wargaming campaign, so that characters were intended to be doing all that adventuring and looting with an eye towards a long term goal of building their stronghold and military strength. But the game very quickly became about just the adventuring and looting, and plots reflected it. Now, the A plot still tends to be reactionary (stop the Big Bad from doing the thing), but the story tends to be given more meaning by the B plots relating to character goals, motivations and relationships.

That's specifically why I've felt the need to radically rewrite the new Vecna adventure: I need it to matter to my players at a character level, and to have more options than are presented in the adventure as written.

3. Player agency. Probably like a lot of experienced DMs, I've taken on ideas from a lot of other games. My current home campaign included a session run using modified Fiasco rules, where we all created the story together, and started with a "funnel" style game using modified Dread rules, in which most of the initial player characters died. In every session, players are welcome to contribute to the storytelling in meaningful ways that relate to their character. And plots are malleable, so that the game can react to and honour whatever choices the players make. On this latter point, even though PBTA-style games are minuscule in sales when compared to the D&D behemoth, I think some of their ideas about story are slowly percolating into the D&D community (note: by this I mean games like Monster Hearts, Dungeon World and now, especially, Daggerheart).

For me, this has made DMing a lot more fun. Since I don't know exactly where the story is going, I am excited to play and find out!

4. Consent matters. A lot of folks have mentioned the ubiquity of Session 0 in the modern game. As the game has expanded, it has become particularly vital to make sure everyone is on the same page, particularly when starting with a new group of people. As I run starter campaigns for my school's D&D Club, this is super important! You want everyone to have a good time, and one way to help this happen is to come to some essential agreements up front.

For instance, at school my D&D games are gonna be PG-rated. That's non-negotiable; I want to keep my job. But even at home I don't run "evil" campaigns, by which I mean "sociopathically evil characters," not "goofy evil characters." No shaming - I love horror movies and I get why these characters are enjoyable for some. But I hate running them and since I'm doing most of the work, nope.

And I think a huge shift has been towards being much more conscientious about what the players want and consent to. That's a good thing! We play games for fun, and it's worth making the effort to make sure that everyone is having a good time.

5. Alignment gone or less prioritized. When you look at the entirety of TTRPGS, alignment is kind of a weird little D&D quirk, but since D&D is so massive, alignment was kind of normalized. Nevertheless, it has been continually deemphasized for decades, and in the 2024 update is basically presented as a cosmetic option. I think this directly relates back to my first point: as stories are driven more by internal character conflicts, the notion of externally driven moral forces becomes less essential. In effect, D&D stories are evolving towards being more like stories in other media (imagine a novel where you are told the protagonist's "alignment," and how silly that would seem), and less like game contrivances.

Edit: a few other things, more mechanical: Systems tend to be more harmonized; there are far fewer bespoke ways of handling different aspects of the game, like Gygax's infamous "harlot table." Along these lines, character creation is far more likely to use standard array or point buy with younger players. Your d20 does FAR more work than it used to. Character class balance, though far from perfect, is MUCH more even than it used to be.
 
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, I would never expect my players to be experts on woods--if they are engaging in at least a reasonable effort to learn about the world around them and interact with the things in it, I will explain what their character would know.
It's not really about being an expert.....just a knowledgeable person.

A typical Old School DM is keeping track items and materials. This is part of the fun for many Old School DMs. Many Old School players like this too, so everyone matches up ok. There are some players that are more for "whatever" and don't care...and many OS DMs will let them get away with the 'average' result....."you gather wood for the fire and it burns".

Another type of fun....a bit beyond the game. Is where the DM and player can share the like of knowledge, history and other topics.

This leads into the DM giving the players things to look up and read. Both to expand general real world knowledge....but also help in the game. If a player wants to know more about a topic, I'll give them a reading list. Or even lend them a book.

don't think I have ever seen that
Odd, it's common enough.
we have different ideas of what is fun
Kind of the whole point of having different ways to play the game.
 

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