D&D General Defining "New School" Play (+)

Mod Note:

1) Some people in this thread have forgotten how to disagree without being disagreeable, or alternatively, never learned this skill. There are books on this; perhaps those people should read 2-3, because otherwise, they may be penalized.

2) Some people have forgotten this is a (+) thread, in which- among other things- means a higher degree of civility is expected. You’re in here to engage in constructive criticism, not sniping and griping about old disagreements. If you find another poster is pushing your buttons, instead of ignoring the expectations of a (+) thread, use your account’s function to ignore the other poster.

I hope this has been helpful.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Would there be a reason they can't?
In most average ranged encounters, the archer will be shooting targets far away.
We are talking about Dungeons and Dragons. And while we do reference rules, we do not read them at each other in the manner you described. You have also now added a term "deep role play simulation" that honestly sounds like you are continuing to make things up.
Ok, in your game you never read the rules out loud. Many people do...it is a thing.
Sure, if I want to be Tom Hanks or the next Broadway star, that would make sense. I'm goofing off with my friends after a long work day, not shooting for the Golden Globes. I am not a professional actor, neither is anyone at my table, and treating them like they should be is completely unfair.
Ok, so why can't you be an amateur actor? A lot of gamers also do theater and acting..
It also doesn't make any sense as a difference, because often the NS focus on story and character, on role-playing, is held up as an opposition to the OS style of game where the players act more like they are moving pieces on a game board.
This is true only for Classic Old School Gameplay.

Though most Old School D&D games use miniatures, and New School does not.
As the DM, why would I give out a handout before the game, for something that we didn't know was going to happen?
As I mentioned before, OLd School is about giving the players lots of information. It's not the "you will need to know this in a couple minutes", it is "here is another handout".
Right, well, many of those designs we have discussed are terrible designs that lead to horrible results. We have people who have worked in professional game design, who have looked at some of these standard old school practices, and pointed out their flaws and how they impact player psychology.
Okay?
 

Precise Detail vs Broad Strokes
Agreed.

I would also add it is typical of Old School DMs to greatly detail areas. This can vary a lot by DMs, but most go into lots of detail. An Old School character interacts with their enthronement a lot through detailed role playing, so the player needs to know all the details. Also many Old School games make full use of the environment and everything in it. As everything can be used by the characters. Old School greatly favors the characters picking up and using whatever they might find. "MacGuyvering" things is common in Old School. In Old School games it is common for times and equipment to be lost or destroyed, so characters often need to replace such things.

Also many Old School games use miniatures, so detail is needed to use them.

New School just covers the broad strokes. With a focus on anything important. Here characters interact with the environment in the abstract, by things such as skill checks. And few NS games use miniatures.

Lethality and Permanence vs Consent
I don't think anyone disagrees that Old School games are more lethal. Whether that is from instant-death abilities, simply more traps and monsters, from restarting characters from level 1... I think the reasons differ depending on the flavor of the Old School DM. I also think Old School games are far more likely to permanently alter or damage PCs. It would be a rare situation where a NS PC loses an arm, and there isn't a way to replace it offered within a session or two.
All Agreed.
This often is the point of bitter contention between the two camps. But I do not feel like the difference is one of difficulty. Thinking on it, OS games are also more likely to have monsters like Rust Monsters which destroy equipment. And I think that is where it is a mix of two interests of the New School DM. One interest is story the other is simplicity of play. Let us say a PC loses an arm. This now needs to be accounted for with EVERYTHING. Every task needs to be reconsidered with the new information. It becomes something to track, which can lead to goofs and mistakes where one-side or the other forgets the limitation and does something, then we need to go back and explain how it happened. And this carries through with permanent ability score loss, or losing levels and losing access to abilities or spells as well. It is a complexity of remember both the "real" values and the "new" values. And for NS DMs, I feel like we are usually running a cost-benefit analysis of "is removing the fighter's arm and forcing them to use their back-up weapon worth it?"
It is worth it in the Old School mind set. Like above, it is a more complex game if a character has to account for an ongoing effect. I would also add that effects are not always a pure negative. A character might be covered in magic ever burning fire and get some good effects...but also be unable to wear/hold things as they will burn or melt.
Yes, it would be a "challenge" because they are using a different weapon, and having one-arm is more challenging than having two, but is the amount of fun they might have figuring that challenge out, worth the effort and frustration they may inevitably feel? There is a big culture of consenting to the challenge/drama that I feel is an important component. I remember one time I was discussing with a DM who was trying to force my character into a situation where they were going to be forcibly turned into a vampire and forced to betray the party. I did not want that for my character, that was not the story I wanted for them. And this always seems to confuse old school players to a degree, because they feel that since I agreed to play the game, I consented to any and all things they decide to do in the game.
As noted, this type of fun is fun for Old School players. It is rare for Old School to even have the idea of consent. During game play the DM is free to have whatever they want to have happen. Even to PCs. An Old School player accepts this, even if they don't like it. Playing through hardships and adversity is fun to an Old School Gamer.
To maybe give a clearer example,
I'm not sure this is clearer or even part of one school. I think many players will say they don't want to loose their characters cool or favorite items.
We want challenges, we want drama, many NS players and DMs refer to personal plothooks as "knives" because we want the DM to use them and twist them, because the drama is fun and delicious. I want my prideful barbarian to be confronted with the idea that his culture isn't the best thing ever created, I don't want him to lose both legs and have his mind put into the body of a dog. One is a challenge and emotional drama I will relish, the other is going to have me trashing the character sheet and likely looking for a new game, because it sucks all the fun out of what I was trying to build together with the group.
This just highlights the differences, as plenty of Old School players would be fine playing Bark Bark the Dog Barbarian.
Not that I think old school games automatically invalidate player consent like that, but simply when we talk about this, people seem to get the wrong idea and assume that it means there are zero challenges, because the players can veto specific challenges as going in the wrong direction.
The games are very different. Many Old School gamers would never ask a player for consent or take there wish into account at all.....but it's not completely unknown to happen.

And add

Every-person Heroes vs Chosen One Super Heroes

A New School character example is Luke (or Rae) Skywalker, Neo or Harry Potter.
An Old School character example is Conan, Dirty Harry or John McClaine

Long Duration vs Short Duration
A New School game often has a set time limit, often a story goal, that once met ends the game. NS is often more focused and limited, so a campaign will be a set type of game...like an underwater setting, so all the players will make underwater characters.

Old School is often more Forever Campaigns. Players make whatever characters they wish, and then adventure endlessly. Very often for real world years, or more.
 

Prototype superhero played by a real life superhero Conan's not a superhero?

Unstoppable Every Cop who once killed a helicopter by throwing a police car at it John McLane isn't a superhero?

It's been decades since I've seen Dirty Harry, but I'm pretty sure he acts with the cruelty and impunity of the Punisher, so maybe supervillain in as much as Frank is also 'super'.

Also, small child who needs an army of people to keep him not dead enough to let the author give him the final loophole to kill the big bad, Harry Potter is a superhero?

Please define the terms being used.
 

Every-person Heroes vs Chosen One Super Heroes

A New School character example is Luke (or Rae) Skywalker, Neo or Harry Potter.
An Old School character example is Conan, Dirty Harry or John McClaine
There isnt any distinction here. It's not like Conan, Harry, or John are not chosen ones as main characters. They are not going to randomly take a bullet or get eaten by a monster.

A better one is war or horror flicks where only the lucky/clever survive. You have no name as a private in the platoon until you make it. Forever red shirts on Star Trek just waiting to get taken out by a random space flora or monstrous space beast. See if you can ever get that gold or blue jersey.
 

I always say that I'm not old school, but I am old fashioned. My tastes were formed mostly in the early to mid 80s, and I'm sympathetic to a lot of traditional ways of doing things in RPGs. That said, I never had any interest in a lot of things that the OSR claims as core to their philosophy. Then again, neither do I remember that many of those things were used in any group I was a part of in the early 80s.

There's a lot of cool people with OSR-like tastes, but I also find it a pattern that if there's smug, elitist behavior about how to play that it often comes from that quarter.

I think the problem when that occurs is people have some variation of the "Back in my day, we walked uphill both ways to school in the rain" sort of thing, where doing things the hard way is considered a virtue even in an entertainment enterprise. This is fundamentally ridiculous, but you see it in other places (parts of video gaming come to mind).
 

In most average ranged encounters, the archer will be shooting targets far away.

And how does that prevent the archer from recovering arrows?

Ok, in your game you never read the rules out loud. Many people do...it is a thing.

This is not what you had described. But I am willing to drop this thread of the conversation.

Ok, so why can't you be an amateur actor? A lot of gamers also do theater and acting..

There is a difference between someone wanting to do something, because they enjoy it, and demanding someone do something because you are setting it up as a group expectation.

This is true only for Classic Old School Gameplay.

Though most Old School D&D games use miniatures, and New School does not.

Yes, we do use miniatures.

As I mentioned before, OLd School is about giving the players lots of information. It's not the "you will need to know this in a couple minutes", it is "here is another handout".

Which, as has been pointed out, is an entirely unreasonable expectation to force on to a group. Again, there is nothing wrong with providing information for fun, but you are talking about taking it to a level where you are providing reams of information, then if a player has a question, simply dismissing their question because they didn't read or take proper notes on your information.

I actually don't even think this has anything to do with an "old school" style game, this is just lack of consideration for your players.


So if we have figured out bad trap designs that lead to undesirable results.... we should avoid them.
 

There isnt any distinction here. It's not like Conan, Harry, or John are not chosen ones as main characters. They are not going to randomly take a bullet or get eaten by a monster.

A better one is war or horror flicks where only the lucky/clever survive. You have no name as a private in the platoon until you make it. Forever red shirts on Star Trek just waiting to get taken out by a random space flora or monstrous space beast. See if you can ever get that gold or blue jersey.

In fact, I've seen some Old School people refer to their preferred style as Fantasy F*** Vietnam for just that reason. Its just hard for me to entirely take them seriously if they attempt to claim that was the original intent of D&D when it used people like Conan or Fafhrd and the Mouser as examples. (This may have often been the practical effect, which is why the game changed over time to get how it was marketed--and often played--in line with the way the game worked, but it certainly wasn't how it was ever officially pushed).
 

In fact, I've seen some Old School people refer to their preferred style as Fantasy F*** Vietnam for just that reason. Its just hard for me to entirely take them seriously if they attempt to claim that was the original intent of D&D when it used people like Conan or Fafhrd and the Mouser as examples. (This may have often been the practical effect, which is why the game changed over time to get how it was marketed--and often played--in line with the way the game worked, but it certainly wasn't how it was ever officially pushed).
Yeah FFV has been around for sometime but I dont like using it. I mean, its apt for whats its indicating, but seems rather disrespectful. Im not sure exactly how the extreme survival sim came about, but I encountered it a lot. In fact, a few folks I know still expect the game to play that way. Most folks I play with moved away from that, but still want death to be possible, just not around every single corner. Its exhausting.
 

In fact, I've seen some Old School people refer to their preferred style as Fantasy F*** Vietnam for just that reason. Its just hard for me to entirely take them seriously if they attempt to claim that was the original intent of D&D when it used people like Conan or Fafhrd and the Mouser as examples. (This may have often been the practical effect, which is why the game changed over time to get how it was marketed--and often played--in line with the way the game worked, but it certainly wasn't how it was ever officially pushed).
But the rules not reflecting the intended play experience is OSR to the core. In OSR, the DM ignores the rules or beats into their preferred shape!
 

Remove ads

Top