D&D General Alternate thought - rule of cool is bad for gaming

[tetrasodium]

Assuming running is possible, which it often isn't because most monsters move faster than most PCs.

There are two solutions to an impending TPK like the one described. Even a TPK caused by freak bad luck is rarely a thing that just happens in an instant with no chance to react -UNLESS- the party was being reckless in the overestimation of their reserves (hp/spell slots/ ability charges/consumable magic items/etc). That TPK usually comes in the form of a slow moving trainwreck that just keeps rolling without anyone stopping to reconsider the current course of things & take action accordingly.

As such, even a TPK caused by freak bad luck often indicates that the players were not reserving or failing to effectively deploy any hail Mary cards that should have been ready to go when things started to go sideways. Other times they are so poor at judging risk that they chose to continue as if nothing was at stake even when it should have been obvious that running away was the sane choice as Lanefan implied.

Even in a case where the monsters are faster than PCs who are being chased it still falls to the players to effectively run away by using their skills spells abilities & consumable resources. By doing that the players can make chasing them hard enough to get away or make not chasing them the more attractive option. "I move 30 feet & use my action to dash for another 30 feet" is rarely the only tool that players have at their disposal & shoud absolutely not be considered the case

As a GM it's incredibly frustrating to hand players what should have been a "break glass in case of emergency" type thing only to have them either use it as a normal thing (ie 5e's stupidly recharging wands) or continue to the death without ever scouring their inventory for doodads that could help the party steer the ship. Recognizing such needs & keeping tools in reserve for the possibility however requires a system where players feel those sorts of risks are even a plausible possibility, 5e has paradoxically poisoned that very well by ensuring that players consider it an implausible possibility.

* There's nothing wrong with it either

 

[Maxperson]

Nope!

My stance is that altering rules IN WAYS THE PLAYERS KNOW OR CAN LEARN is fine. Secretly doing it is deceptive, and takes away the players' ability to actually play the game. If it is done secretly, it is genuinely impossible for them to know what is actually the game and what is DM manipulation.

Except that it does not do that at all. You can argue deceptive, but to argue that it takes away their ability to play the game is wrong.

First off, rolling is the minority of the game, so even if you think that it takes away rolling, it still fails under your own claim to prevent them from playing the game. Secondly, if the overwhelming majority of rolls are adhered to, they are still playing the game. The ability to fudge a few rolls over two years of real time game play doesn't invalidate rolling. It can't invalidate rolling that way. That means that they are actually playing the game with regard to rolling as well.

 

[Oofta]

If only there were some way to address this without such deception! But alas, you certainly can't just ask your players not to use mounts... that's just unacceptable.

We thought it was funny once we figured it out.

He wasn't our DM for much longer, different passive aggressive reasons.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The bold is precisely why it cannot be used.

That depends on how important "cool" is to your group.

...actually, it doesn't. "AI" DMs are going to happen eventually, so "cannot be used" seems pretty unrealistic to me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not at all. 3e (and its children, e.g. PF) and 4e (and its cousins, like 13A) both show examples of other ways. Dungeon World, which was very specifically designed to capture the feel of early D&D as its creators remembered playing it (which, of course, is not the same as actually being 1:1 the same as early D&D), has specific rules that the GM is not allowed to break.

The situation is nowhere near as hegemonic as you want it to be.


I believe in information that can be found. Fudging is, by explicit intent, information that is never meant to be found, not even in principle. Same with secretly (NOT openly, secretly) rewriting monster stats on the fly, "invisible railroads", and other techniques that put up the front of imperfection-free DMing.

If you level with your players (so it isn't secret in the first place), or make it genuinely discoverable within the game with a truly fair shot (none of this "well if they'd double crit after asking the exact correct question then it could have happened!" nonsense), then there is no problem. But that's not what people talk about with fudging and "invisible railroads" and these other deceptive DMing tools.


And if that is genuinely the result of a player not thinking to ask a reasonable question (you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink, after all), or trying to but the dice were uncooperative, then fine. As said, the techniques Max and others refer to go far, far beyond that.

I'm not talking about fudging (which I don't believe in), and never was. I'm talking about making choices as a PC and not getting all the information, because sometimes you don't look in the right place, or you fail, or you decide not to look.

And DW is a PBtA game. It uses PBtA mechanics, which are decidedly not the mechanics of any version of D&D, no matter what "experience" it is designed to simulate. The things about it that make being a DM different there are those same mechanics that make it a completely different game from D&D.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Assuming running is possible, which it often isn't because most monsters move faster than most PCs.

This would all be so much easier if they just brought back the reaction roll. Who's to say the monsters want to give chase anyway?

 

[Micah Sweet]

wouldn't that be the player's decision so explicitly the one thing the GM doesn't have control over? or do you expect them to decide a decisively winning side develops an intense bout of cowardice purely to ensure the survival of the party?

Well, if the players decide to have their PCs fight to the death, in principle that's on them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Quite easily. Fudging pretends that problems never happen. Actually making diegetic changes or leveling with your players solves the problems fudging merely spackles over.


It absolutely does. You, the DM, always are the one actually deciding what happens. Every single time. It just coincidentally happens that you decide to follow the rules.

I noticed you skipped answering @Maxperson 's claim that all rules in D&D are rendered meaningless if your stance is true.

 

[FrogReaver]

Precisely. Dice that have no binding force are merely a suggestion, at best. Dice that the DM can directly defy whenever they think it's warranted are not even suggestions--they're set dressing.

I would say that depends mostly on the degree a given DM finds it warranted to disregard the dice. If it’s 1 out of a million times that doesn’t make the other 999,999 times set dressing.

 

[bloodtide]

Just to show you how absurd your stance is, your claim means that because rule 0 has existed in all editions of D&D, every D&D edition has been 100% window dressing.

Sounds true to me. Very Old School D&D right there.

Though, of course, you can do it with any kind of D&D and any game. Yes even 'that' game. You can simply not follow the rules and fool, trick or mislead the players. Or if you need too follow the rules to fool, trick or mislead the players. There is no perfect game...like there is no perfect anything.

My stance is that altering rules IN WAYS THE PLAYERS KNOW OR CAN LEARN is fine. Secretly doing it is deceptive, and takes away the players' ability to actually play the game. If it is done secretly, it is genuinely impossible for them to know what is actually the game and what is DM manipulation.

Except this won't always work.

Sure there are a handful of players that pay attention to 'check' the DM......and the rest could not do so if they tried. So the players knowing all the rules does not really help them.