D&D General On Early D&D and Problematic Faves: How to Grapple with the Sins of the Past

The issue in this particular case is that the art is an interactive game. You can’t ignore Gygax’s sexism while playing OD&D or 1e. You have to make decisions about it.

True but as these threads have shown, people will disagree over which elements are sexist and problematic. And even when people agree, people are going to disagree over how to approach a game that has content like that
Also, ignoring the historical context of art seems to set aside any responsibility on the part of the audience. Would you buy art from an artist you find morally reprehensible? Especially if those attitudes were clearly an element of the art? Are you then endorsing it, as well as popularizing it?

I wasn't arguing for ignoring historical context. I would buy art from an artist I consider reprehensible. I consider Norman Mailer to be an utterly reprehensible human being, but bought many of his books, even while he was alive, and his books frequently reflect the bad nature of his character, even advocate for things I strongly disagree with. Another would be Lovecraft. I strongly disagree with many of his beliefs, they are present in the work, and in places even advocate for viewpoints I find objectionable. I don't think engaging with the artwork of people who held views you disagree with means you are endorsing it at all. it also doesn't mean you are popularizing it. This is especially the case when you are engaging with works from different times when there is just greater likelihood of that happening.


I think it’s complicated. I don’t think it’s possible to entirely separate the art from the artist. All of our own choices have consequences, and there is no simple answer. I think each of us has to decide where our lines are, but there is no consequence free zone.

I don't disagree. It is complicated. I agree with you that people need to decide on their own lines. I do think we can separate the art from the artist a lot more than we are doing now (and I think we ought to do that more). I don't think there is zero connection between the two. But I do think the better art is usually produced by flawed people and a campaign to rid ourselves of flawed artists, is going to lead to less interesting art. Which is why I think nuance is important. In my case, as I said before, I am very accustomed to reading books and primary sources from times when people held wildly different views from now. I used to transcribe journals for example when I was a student interning at a museum. You are going to find lots of objectionable thoughts if you read a person's thoughts from 100 years ago. That doesn't mean the journals weren't engaging and interesting and worth reading. By the same token, I read a lot of older fiction. When you are reading a book from 100, 200, 500, or 2,000 years ago, you are going to encounter ideas you disagree with morally. I can note that, but focus on the content. Doesn't mean I don't internally disagree with it, or that I can't have a conversation about it, but I can read the material without stopping and I can still find value in it (and I can ask myself how prevalent I think this view was at the time, which to me makes a difference in how I view it). If Lovecraft were writing today, I would be a lot more shocked by the content than I am knowing he is a New England Yankee writing when many of the ideas he espoused had traction (doesn't excuse them, but it makes them a lot less shocking to me, and even predictable to an extent). Still I adore Lovecraft's writing, I do think he is a genius of the genre. I wouldn't stop reading him, or focus exclusively on his questionable worldviews when doing so. It is something I have always been able to make note of but not my priority when I am reading him.
 

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The issue in this particular case is that the art is an interactive game. You can’t ignore Gygax’s sexism while playing OD&D or 1e. You have to make decisions about it.

Again I have very little interest in the Gygax debate itself. But if we are just strictly looking at OD&D, most of those elements are no longer in the game. The majority of what people argue now are residual traces of impurity in the tropes (something I think we have taken way too far, to the extent it makes campaigns and games less playable because we work ourselves in circles trying to excise things like evil orcs). On stuff from Gary specifically. Obviously like any book from the 70s, I read those things and found passages I disagreed with or didn't like. Here I am talking stuff that is strictly in the game books themselves, not weird statements he has made in obscure gaming magazines. Overall I find his writing style very entertaining, but I understand 1) it comes from a very different cultural context and 2) comes from an eccentric man who seems to have had political views that I disagree with strongly (I find those emerge from time to time, often as humorous quips, but sometimes more pronounced. However there are very few aspects of the game where it presents a problem. Maybe there are lines of text, which again, I would contextualize and maybe even find a bit funny just because they sound outrageous now. An evil matriarchy trope isn't going to trouble me for example. A 'brazen strumpet' makes me laugh because there is definitely humor there, but I always ignore that stuff because I don't like the idea of RPing a brazen strumpet coming on to the party (I am not outraged that it is there, I just wouldn't be comfortable roleplaying that).
 





Amanda Palmer has suggested that there's well over a dozen women who have come to her with complaints, so this scandal is likely just getting started. And Gaiman's podcast about it didn't help, and if anything seemed to confirm at least inappropriate sexual harassment of young girls that worked for him. If not worse.

But nobody's talking about that because Gary Gygax said something that offended literally nobody at the time, but over forty years later is controversial. Even if you're NOW offended by Gygax, that still seems like a strange prioritization of things to be concerned about.
Or the crowd still loves Gaiman and cheers for him. AKA the mob hasn't been loaned enough torches yet.
 

Is it professional for a Historian to judge the works he is compiling? IF so, should they selectivity quote, or just do a foreword denouncing it?

.. 1. Is this an artist, or an art issue? It is a slider scale. I still listen to Bill Cosby tapes especially the kids’ ones. Chicken Heart, to my brother Russel who I slept with. But some his other works no.

To sum up. I will still consume art even when I know the artist is now problematic. Other times like Marrion Z Bradley. No. Of course ,the big point some may miss, is you change over time. So does your taste.
 

Your last point doesn’t square with your first. If you know that many of your prior beliefs were wrong, why would you continue to believe that your current beliefs must be correct? I’ve come to constantly reassess my beliefs as I’ve aged, given my many mistakes in the past.
The part about MGibsters being the standard by which I measure the world was a joke.
 

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