D&D General Player-generated fiction in D&D

[pemerton]

High volume, likely not but there are instances

<snip examples>

That is all that comes to mind, but I'm probably missing something.

Cool stuff, thanks for sharing!

How did the player-generated NPCs work out?

 

[soviet]

'If the game rules allow players to diplomacise a wall then they will do so and it's the fault of the rules'.

'If the game rules allow me to make stuff up about the world, but making stuff up about the world would ruin my fun, I must make stuff up about the world and ruin my own fun and it will be the fault of the rules'.

 

[Theory of Games]

No. That's not what the rule says.

A skill challenge is defined by a goal and the obstacles that stand in the way of the PCs accomplishing that goal. Not by a task like climbing a wall.

sitting in the endzone watching the goal post move again

So. If my character's GOAL is catching an escaping assassin. And the wall is an OBSTACLE to my PC catching the assassin. I can't use Streetwise to climb the wall?

 

[Vaalingrade]

re: Diplomacy on a climb check - isn't the point of this game of imagination being creative? If you can come up with a way, why not? I've often let players use knowledge, craft and profession type skills for conversation and who hasn't seen a strength check used to intimidate.

 

[soviet]

re: Diplomacy on a climb check - isn't the point of this game of imagination being creative? If you can come up with a way, why not? I've often let players use knowledge, craft and profession type skills for conversation and who hasn't seen a strength check used to intimidate.

Fully agreed.

'I approach the guard at the adjacent doorway - 'I say good fellow, I'm on an urgent mission for the King, you couldn't let me through and up the stairs could you?'

 

[Manbearcat]

Fully agreed.

'I approach the guard at the adjacent doorway - 'I say good fellow, I'm on an urgent mission for the King, you couldn't let me through and up the stairs could you?'

No one has ever been convinced to be allowed to use stairs before. What sort of genre-bending, anti-immersion, puppy-kicking game are you playing?

 

[bloodtide]

I'm not a big fan of having the players add things to the game. I'll tell such a player that it might be better if they just stayed home to write their novel.

 

[pemerton]

this is for a skill challenge for a group, not a single test for success in getting up the wall by one character, so it can be building something up for the group:

Like, "I'll use Diplomacy to see if I can get the guy selling cabbages to allow us to clamber up on the sturdy-looking framework of his stall, which just happens to be where the wall is shortest..."

What is the difference between the above, and the situation where the player asks, "Hey, do I see a market stall near the wall, preferably where it is at a low point so maybe we can get over the wall that way?" and the GM, who hadn't thought of it before, decides "Sure, there's a cabbage stall next to a spot where the wall dips low."?

Is there a difference?

There's a sort of table etiquette difference - do you ask if it exists, or state its existence and wait for the GM to shoot it down? It is a table-agreement sort of thing.

But otherwise, I see no meaningful difference

The 4e DMG 2 discusses this - it contrasts a player asking or prompting the GM, with a player making a direct assertion.

I think that, generally, direct assertion or suggestion is preferable as the table gets its groove, just because it preserves immediacy and enhances player participation.

I think a lot of this is more seamless in actual play at the table than it is when people are having online discussions.

In play it's very seamless.

The player of the wizard in my 4e D&D game would often make assertions about how magic works, either in general or in relation to a particular magical effect, and then declare actions that related to that. It made complete sense in the fiction that this character - with an extremely high Arcana bonus, and eventually a Sage of Ages - would know that sort of thing. It added colour. And it gradually built up this "theory" of magic and its place in the world.

All good stuff!

But I don't see any bright line here - there are a lot of ways, in a conversation, to introduce an idea and see if others take it up. Even back in his DMG (1978), Gygax had an example of a player taking the lead in suggesting the existence of a bit of terrain that would suit the castle the player wants their PC to build.

 

[pemerton]

So. If my character's GOAL is catching an escaping assassin. And the wall is an OBSTACLE to my PC catching the assassin. I can't use Streetwise to climb the wall?

Climbing a wall is a feat of STR (in the 4e D&D framework). What action are you declaring that is best resolved by a Streetwise check (which is a CHA-based familiarity with urban life and the common people)?

 

[pemerton]

re: Diplomacy on a climb check - isn't the point of this game of imagination being creative? If you can come up with a way, why not? I've often let players use knowledge, craft and profession type skills for conversation and who hasn't seen a strength check used to intimidate.

For me, the issue is what action is being declared? And then, what skill is appropriate for resolving that declared action?

@Umbran gave an example upthread - about the market stall - where the appropriate skill is Diplomacy. Framed slightly differently, the appropriate skill could be Streetwise.

Here's an example I came up with back in 2008, about how Diplomacy (and some other skills) might be relevant in an attempt to get through the gates of Moria:

But which of Diplomacy, Acrobatics or Arcana is the correct skill? You (the player) tell me (another player, or the GM).

Using Diplomacy: "Remember that time we were visiting the Wizards' Guild in Greyhawk? And I was buttering up that Burglomancer specialist? She told me a heap of old magical passwords - I try them all." The player rolls Diplomacy (probably at a hard DC - it's a pretty far-fetched story!) to see if this is true.

Using Acrobatics: "As the Watcher in the Water writhes about with its tentacles, I dodge at the last minute so it smashes into the door and breaks it." That might be a hard DC as well.

Using Arcana: "I speak a spell of opening". Medium DC. Or "I speak a spell of recall, to remember all the passwords and riddles I've learned over the years". That's more interesting and more clever- let's say a Medium DC with a +2 circumstance modifier.

If some don't find non-combat challenges fun, they shouldn't play a game with skill challenges. Skill challenges are a mechanic for those who do find non-combat challenges fun. They are very obviously influenced by the conflict-resolution mechanics of games like HeroWars/Quest, The Dying Earth, etc. The DMG makes it abundantly clear (as my earlier post indicated) that this is how they are to be played. No part of either the PHB or the DMG text generates any contrary implication