D&D (2024) D&D species article

[Zuranthium]

Ability scores and ability modifiers are poor choices to display the difference between races in a TTRPG because the formula required to make it matter if too complex for in-person play.

Small differences matter. Stop saying it doesn't. No complex formula is needed whatsoever.

+2 racial modifier is already meaningful, because it means people pick those races to get the best stat they can in the area they care about most.

Until your total modifier is about 1/3 of the size of the dice you are rolling (for the d20 that's +7), The d20 overpowers whatever modifies you have.

d20 doesn't need to be rolled for everything. You keep insisting on these things as if that's how the game must be.

Difficulty checks should be based around rolling a D10, or an even smaller die, and no "critical fail / critical succeed" nonsense for most actions. No experienced swimmer is ever going to suddenly be terrible at it. Nobody who is bad at math is ever going to suddenly be able to figure out the answer to a calculus equation.

For some things there shouldn't be a roll at all. Just straight ability check: are you able to do something or not.

If you want a species to be strong or fast you need to write the rules that they are strong or fast.

Hence exactly the rules I said. It's not always supposed to be a huge gap though, like with Halfing / Ogre. For most races the differences are smaller, but those differences still matter and make things feel different. Halfling who is able to hit a higher sneak threshold than a Human can. Orc who is able to lift something up that a Human wouldn't have been able to. High Elf Wizard who meets the threshold to cast an extra spell per day than a Human because their +2 INT hits the breakpoint to do so.

 

[Corinnguard]

Breathe weapon replaces one of your attacks. If you only have one attack, it's your action. If you want more than one (fighter, etc) you can attack with a weapon and still breathe flame.

When I was playing a Dragonborn Fighter using the 2014 Fighter, I would use the class's Action Surge for his breath weapon and then use his Action and Bonus Action for his TWF style.

The 2024 Fighter doesn't have Action Surge, if I remember correctly. So, it would be just as you said. Bummer.

 

[CreamCloud0]

When I was playing a Dragonborn Fighter using the 2014 Fighter, I would use the class's Action Surge for his breath weapon and then use his Action and Bonus Action for his TWF style.

The 2024 Fighter doesn't have Action Surge, if I remember correctly. So, it would be just as you said. Bummer.

why is that bummer? the 2014 version fundamentally has worse action economy on their breath weapon as you're expending your entire surge-granted action to perform it, as opposed to a merely a single attack in the 2024 version, is this something where the new design 'feels worse' to you because it's infringing on a different resource to what it did previously even though realistically it's cheaper in most cases? for any class with extra attack giving up a single attack to use their breath weapon is cheaper than it requiring the entire action which could've been used for multiple attacks.

 

[Corinnguard]

why is that bummer? the 2014 version fundamentally has worse action economy on their breath weapon as you're expending your entire surge-granted action to perform it, as opposed to a merely a single attack in the 2024 version, is this something where the new design 'feels worse' to you because it's infringing on a different resource to what it did previously even though realistically it's cheaper in most cases? for any class with extra attack giving up a single attack to use their breath weapon is cheaper than it requiring the entire action which could've been used for multiple attacks.

I was joking. I was aware back then that I was wasting Action Surge by using it only for my character's breath weapon attacks. But I liked using it in addition to my character's TWF attacks. Breathe first, then TWF. I never did use Action Surge for things like Dash, Disengage or Hide.

As for where the new design 'feels worse' to me, I don't know the answer to that yet. My group is still using the 2014 rules and currently has no interest in switching over to the 2024 rules. So, I might be wrong with what I know about what the 2024 Fighter can do.

 

[Minigiant]

Small differences matter. Stop saying it doesn't. No complex formula is needed whatsoever.

+2 racial modifier is already meaningful, because it means people pick those races to get the best stat they can in the area they care about most.

Small differences don't matter.

A small bonus only matters if

1. If the role is constant
2. And the results of roles are cumulative

Aka combat attacks and damage

People care because D&D is a majority combat game.

However having a simple plus two over another character really doesn't make you that much better at breaking down a door. Having a plus 4 over it on the character and doesn't do it either.


The only time for Buddhist matters is when the result is gated behind requiring a top level roll.

When you need to hit a DC-19 having a +2 over a + 0 matters because one person has double the amount of dice results that can succeed.

d20 doesn't need to be rolled for everything. You keep insisting on these things as if that's how the game must be.

Difficulty checks should be based around rolling a D10, or an even smaller die, and no "critical fail / critical succeed" nonsense for most actions. No experienced swimmer is ever going to suddenly be terrible at it. Nobody who is bad at math is ever going to suddenly be able to figure out the answer to a calculus equation.

For some things there shouldn't be a roll at all. Just straight ability check: are you able to do something or not.

And my point is we're not getting away from the d20.

Having a d20 for tax a d10 full skills and a d6 for saves would make small bonuses matter but it triples the complexity of the game.

And that's my core point using ability scores and ability modifiers as your main descriptor of your ability to do things alone would require a change of dice which is the change of the formula.

Which is my point

You have to change the formula in order for these things to work. Which is more to remember, harder to learn, and less likely to catch on.

This is why it should be a case-by-case basis.

If you want it orc to be able to lift four times as much as a halfling, Just make a rule that says

An orc lift double the amount of medium creature likea human and four times as much as a small creature like a halfling.

We had that. It was powerful build. 1-2 sentences in the species traits that every orc player or DM could see an understand without messing with the other aspects of the game.

 

[mamba]

It's not always supposed to be a huge gap though, like with Halfing / Ogre. For most races the differences are smaller

yes, but if you limit yourself to +/-2 then that might be enough for the difference between human and elf, but it still won’t be enough for halfling / ogre. It just is not enough variance to cover the whole range of species

 

[Minigiant]

yes, but if you limit yourself to +/-2 then that might be enough for the difference between human and elf, but it still won’t be enough for halfling / ogre. It just is not enough variance to cover the whole range of species

Broad
Simple
Reliable
Choose 2

The second you all both Halflings and Orcs in your game, you choose Broad

Now you must choose

Simple but unreliable: Just Ability scores and Orcs are not much stronger than Halfling.

Reliable but complex: Carrying capacity formulas and exponents.

A big problem with D&D conversation is that people refuse to make the choice but a choice has to be made. This is why you see All of these cool ideas on YouTube and twitch but then when the people try to monetize them and bear them down they realize that it causes issues elsewhere and suddenly you going through various changes in the alpha state of game design. AKA Daggerheart, MCDM, DC20.

"Oh this is such a good idea"
Playtest
Womp womp
Idea is chopped up or cut

 

[UngeheuerLich]

When I was playing a Dragonborn Fighter using the 2014 Fighter, I would use the class's Action Surge for his breath weapon and then use his Action and Bonus Action for his TWF style.

The 2024 Fighter doesn't have Action Surge, if I remember correctly. So, it would be just as you said. Bummer.

Why do you think the 2024 fighter does not have action surge?

 

[Corinnguard]

Why do you think the 2024 fighter does not have action surge?

I probably overlooked it when I was scoping out the 2024 Fighter a couple weeks ago. Failed my Intelligence check again.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I probably overlooked it when I was scoping out the 2024 Fighter a couple weeks ago. Failed my Intelligence check again.

It was just not listed in the changes. Because it did not change (that much).