CreamCloud0
Hero
i know this isn't a + thread but do you have any intention to actually contribute or are you just here to pointlessly trash on 4e because it wasn't your preferred game?
D&D General Player-generated fiction in D&D
- Thread starter pemerton
- Start date
Theory of Games
Storied Gamist
Bad design is bad design. I'm only pointing it out. We need less "+" threads so we can discuss ttrpg design HONESTLY rather than censoring dissenting opinions.
I'm not sure what you mean by "ownership". But anyway, the "why" is to have fun RPGing.
CreamCloud0
Hero
maybe this should be made into a + thread...
Have you read the 4e DMG? Have you ever run a skill challenge? Do you have much familiarity with the earlier extended conflict framework systems they are based on (eg from Robin Laws's HeroWars/Quest)?
The quote from p 73 of the 4e DMG is "When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it." This is reinforced on pp 74-5:
You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results. The skill challenge description outlines the skills that are useful for the challenge and the results of using them. . . .
You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results. The skill challenge description outlines the skills that are useful for the challenge and the results of using them. . . .
In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . . .
However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation. If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing to help the party survive in the uninhabited sandy wastes by using that skill. Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge.
You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results. The skill challenge description outlines the skills that are useful for the challenge and the results of using them. . . .
In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . . .
However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation. If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing to help the party survive in the uninhabited sandy wastes by using that skill. Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge.
A skill challenge isn't a puzzle, with the GM having prescribed the solution and the players expected to guess or infer what that is. A skill challenge is a fictional situation with a "complexity" deemed by the GM. The players' role is to use their imagination to conceive of things that their PCs can do to achieve their goal in the situation. Diplomacy is a skill for being friendly and persuasive with people. Athletics is a skill for using muscle and physical prowess - running, jumping, climbing, etc.
A player who wants their player to circumvent a wall as an obstacle needs to declare an action - and the action declared then determines what skill is checked. If the player wants to roll Diplomacy, they need to declare an action that involves being friendly to and persuading a person. Examples have already been given in this thread, by @Umbran and @soviet, as to how such a declared action might help a character circumvent a wall as an obstacle.
EDIT:
Being proficient in a skill, in 4e D&D, affects the skill bonus. This in turn affects the likelihood of the player succeeding on a check.
A player who chooses to play a character who is proficient in Athletics will tend to declare physical actions for their PCs, when they can. A player who choose to play a character who is proficient in Diplomacy will tend to declare social actions. What's interesting, as a GM, is to try and frame situations that prompt players to declare actions that are not areas of prowess for their PCs.
Thanks for sharing these examples!
GobHag
Adventurer
Yeah, like how 4e is a good game.
Aldarc
Legend
My partner is an absolute TTRPG noob. They have played only a handful of TTRPGs in either one-shots or short adventures, including 5e D&D. I don't really talk about the fine details of TTRPGs with them. A lot of "TTRPG talk" type discussions here go over their heads.
They wanted to try GMing. I recommended Fabula Ultima's Press Start, since it basically doubles as a tutorial for GMing and learning the game. They wanted to first try Numenera, since they had played that before. But they bounced off of Monte Cook's adventure writing-style. So they decided to try Fabula Ultima. They ran it with little problem.
When we finished, they were surprised by how time flew while they were having fun. Naturally I was curious about what they thought about GMing, Fabula Ultima, and how things went. I was personally surprised by their feedback as the first thing that they said was that they liked was players coming up with things about the world during play. (This is part of Fabula Ultima's Press Start and how the game is supposed to be played.)
I didn't expect that answer because it's not a TTRPG topic that I have ever talked about with them before. They weren't using the vocabulary often used here of player-authored/generated-fiction or related jargon, but they were clearly talking about the general idea. They liked that it made things surprising for them as a GM. They liked what the players came up with, and they liked working that into the game as we played. They liked that it decreased their mental load as a GM. They said that they expected that it would increase the replay value of the Press Start mini-adventure if players came up with different things each time. I was just listening to them and the other players talk about it. Fabula Ultima is now probably a top contender for what they would like to play again.
I do sometimes wonder if we are conditioned by D&D and many other more traditional TTRPGs about things like GM/player roles with generating fiction. It's not just my partner. I have seen many players new to TTRPGs get excited about things like player-generating fiction. And it's often, but not always, the people in the hobby who have been playing almost exclusively D&D and their ilk that seem the most set in their ways against it.
They wanted to try GMing. I recommended Fabula Ultima's Press Start, since it basically doubles as a tutorial for GMing and learning the game. They wanted to first try Numenera, since they had played that before. But they bounced off of Monte Cook's adventure writing-style. So they decided to try Fabula Ultima. They ran it with little problem.
When we finished, they were surprised by how time flew while they were having fun. Naturally I was curious about what they thought about GMing, Fabula Ultima, and how things went. I was personally surprised by their feedback as the first thing that they said was that they liked was players coming up with things about the world during play. (This is part of Fabula Ultima's Press Start and how the game is supposed to be played.)
I didn't expect that answer because it's not a TTRPG topic that I have ever talked about with them before. They weren't using the vocabulary often used here of player-authored/generated-fiction or related jargon, but they were clearly talking about the general idea. They liked that it made things surprising for them as a GM. They liked what the players came up with, and they liked working that into the game as we played. They liked that it decreased their mental load as a GM. They said that they expected that it would increase the replay value of the Press Start mini-adventure if players came up with different things each time. I was just listening to them and the other players talk about it. Fabula Ultima is now probably a top contender for what they would like to play again.
I do sometimes wonder if we are conditioned by D&D and many other more traditional TTRPGs about things like GM/player roles with generating fiction. It's not just my partner. I have seen many players new to TTRPGs get excited about things like player-generating fiction. And it's often, but not always, the people in the hobby who have been playing almost exclusively D&D and their ilk that seem the most set in their ways against it.
KYRON45
Hero
I've been playing D&D exclusively for decades. I can't imagine playing any RPG where the players don't help contribute in every way possible. I don't think its a D&D thing at all. I think it's an...I'm the DM/GM so shut up and sit down....thing. If this is the only style of gaming you have ever had access to there's no reason to think there is any other way to do it.
I've never understood the sentiment that X game only allows for Y play style. It's your game play it however you want.
Break the chains of conformity and be free!!!
I've never understood the sentiment that X game only allows for Y play style. It's your game play it however you want.
Break the chains of conformity and be free!!!
deleuzian_kernel
Adventurer
I think it is fair to say that you misunderstand (just like JA did back in the day) not only how Skill Challenges are supposed to play at the table but also what their gameplay purpose is.4e is garbage but the Skill Challenge rules are hot garbage. I've only touched on the insanity. Justin Alexander does a better job with his analysis:
Skill Challenges – WTF?
Earlier this month, I included some analysis of skill challenges in my essay on the dissociated mechanics of 4th Edition. Because the core rulebooks had not yet been released, I included a disclaimerthealexandrian.net
Not entirely your fault, as it has been discussed previously in many threads here, 4e was a bit schizophrenic about its agenda of play and that didn't help communicate to people with trad/classic sensibilities the paradigm shift that was required to enjoy a different approach to heroic fantasy.
But at this point, with two extensive PbP threads here on Enworld:
A Monk, a Wizard, and a Swordmage Walk into a Fallcrest; a 4e Story Now game
The Slave and Her Sovereign
...where we have the opportunity to read and understand IN-CONTEXT examples of WHY Skill Challenges allow for free player declaration of skills, and WHY they is are to player-empowered dramatic stories, you are gonna have a REALLY hard time trying to sell anyone on "Skill Challenges are bad design."
Sure, they are bad design if you approach 4e with the: player skill against robust world, refereed mindset. This is clearly not what they are about.
