D&D (2024) D&D species article

[Minigiant]

Nope. Never said that.

Then why are you against Powerful Build.

Stats the who discussion. Goliaths and possibly Orc get Powerful Build to represent their much higher ability to lift than Human and Halflings.

 

[Maxperson]

my solution is to replace it with better developed traits

So get rid of the strength score and use only traits?

no i'm not, you're just fixated on pure stats being the only answer

Objectively wrong as evidenced in this thread by me saying multiple times that both ways are fine together.

your stealth bonus is derived in part from your dex modifier, so yes, stealth does equate to dex, enough for it to matter, but you missed the actual point i was making, that if you only use stat modifications it's impossible to separate individual skills capabilities from their parent stat, you can't have a very large conspicuous species that is nonetheless very good at subtle sleight of hand, someone skilled at deception but who otherwise is very uncharismatic.

No. Stealth does not equate to dex. All dex is stealth does not mean that all stealth is dex. The same goes for sleight of hand, deception, etc. Stats add to skills, but skills don't necessarily add to stats.

 

[Maxperson]

Then why are you against Powerful Build.

I'm not and never have been. I'm against it being the only way to model the race as stronger. A powerful build, unlike stealth, does mean a higher strength score.

 

[CreamCloud0]

So get rid of the strength score and use only traits?

no, stop using the strength score as the direct way to make strong species strong.

No. Stealth does not equate to dex. All dex is stealth does not mean that all stealth is dex. The same goes for sleight of hand, deception, etc. Stats add to skills, but skills don't necessarily add to stats.

exactly my point, if modifying the scores is the only way you modify a species strength you'll loose the ability to put nuance into their strengths, and a species will end up strong at a whole grab-bag of only tangentially related skills because you're insisting on only modifying things through the root score.

 

[Maxperson]

no, stop using the strength score as the direct way to make strong species strong.

Then you aren't fixing anything. You're just shifting the problem around a bit.

exactly my point, if modifying the scores is the only way you modify a species strength you'll loose the ability to put nuance into their strengths, and a species will end up strong at a whole grab-bag of only tangentially related skills because you're insisting on only modifying things through the root score.

I have never said it was the only way to modify a race's strength. Only that you have to modify it AND the other way at the same time or strength is contradicting itself in that race.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You aren't looking at the whole picture.

What you are saying is

1. "Goliaths should be WAY stronger than Halflings"
2. "Goliath Bonus to Strength should be +2. Halfling penalty to Strength should be -2."
3. "Goliath should use the same carrying capacity formula as a Halfling"

You cannot have all three.

There is no way to make the difference between a 16 strength Halfling fighter and 20 strength Goliath fighter be a Massive difference while both using the same formula for calculating attack rolls and carrying capacity.

It is impossible.

You must accept removing one of the 3 statements.

I'd be fine with removing number two.

 

[Micah Sweet]

my solution is to replace it with better developed traits

no i'm not, you're just fixated on pure stats being the only answer

your stealth bonus is derived in part from your dex modifier, so yes, stealth does equate to dex, enough for it to matter, but you missed the actual point i was making, that if you only use stat modifications it's impossible to separate individual skills capabilities from their parent stat, you can't have a very large conspicuous species that is nonetheless very good at subtle sleight of hand, someone skilled at deception but who otherwise is very uncharismatic.

Can you provide an example of a better-developed trait for Strength?

 

[dave2008]

"Strength measures bodily power, athletic training, and the extent to which you can exert raw physical force."

That's what it means to a dinosaur.

The game doesn't get that detailed. If the race is stronger, then it gets a strength bonus. Who cares why the horse, cow or chimpanzee are stronger than a human. They are, so they get a strength stat bonus that humans don't get.

If you are declaring a race like Goliaths to be stronger than other races, it has to be modeled in the stat as well.

Your are missing my point. You can have the same strength score and that strength can be applied differently.

I will give you two simple personal examples (though it goes much deeper and wider than these).

1. My dog is smaller and weaker than me. His strength score is probably half mine at best. However, he is much faster than me (absolutely) and can pull more weight than me (proportionally). That can't be expressed by a strength score alone. He can apply his lesser strength differently than me to accomplish athletic feats beyond me.
2. When I was a freshman at university I was on the track team, ran a sub 2 min 1/2 mile and could squat over 600lbs. At that time Mike Powell had just broken the long jump WR at over 29'. He was noted as being able to squat 600lbs. We had the same STR score, but there is no way I could long jump 29' even though I was a fairly highly trained athlete myself.

There are so many variables that go into a display of strength (training, morphology, mindset, culture, etc.) that it is completely acceptable, and realistic IMO and IME, that this could be, possibly should be, accommodated with more than a simple strength score.

 

[Micah Sweet]

no, stop using the strength score as the direct way to make strong species strong.

exactly my point, if modifying the scores is the only way you modify a species strength you'll loose the ability to put nuance into their strengths, and a species will end up strong at a whole grab-bag of only tangentially related skills because you're insisting on only modifying things through the root score.

Are you also advocating a name change for the stat currently referred to as Strength? Because if not, this is going to be confusing and counter-intuitive.

 

[Yaarel]

Are you also advocating a name change for the stat currently referred to as Strength? Because if not, this is going to be confusing and counter-intuitive.

Weightlifting is a reallife skill. A character should be able to have "Weight Training" as a skill proficiency. Lifting extreme weights is an ability check that the skill adds proficiency to, and the Strength adds an ability bonus to. Meanwhile, a character that is significantly larger will additionally have a significantly higher carrying capacity.