D&D (2024) D&D 2024 Rules Oddities (Kibbles’ Collected Complaints)

If true, that's a bad rule as it assumes everyone's arms are five feet long.
The rules do assume a 5' "reach". Monks wouldn't be able to punch anything otherwise.

But that includes moving yourself closer, reaching, and your opponents being being approximately a 5x5 cube.

Grappling usually implies being in close contact with your foe. It's wrestling, not boxing.
Wrestling is 2 hands, and attempts to fully restrict the opponent, and doesn't let you move either. That would be close to incapacitated. Probably need 3 attacks.
Grab (1 hand) -> restrained (2 hands) -> incapacitated (lose your speed).

"Grapple" requires 1 hand, and they are still capable of swinging a Glaive while grappled. So it's much more of a Grab at someone's arm or shirt.


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2024 Grappling is fine. It just gets weird because it is only seen as an extension of Spike Growth.

The real changes to grapple have been...
a) unreliable to trigger, being a save vs DC (that there is no way to increase)
b) Grappler feat is kind of good (if you have an unarmed damage die already, like from natural weapons)
c) the grappled target has disadvantage on attacking anyone but the grappler
d) monks are the best grapplers, simply because they can bonus action for further grapple/shove attempts
 

There's a lot of discussion about a lot of things, but one thing I see a few times boils down to 'they couldn't have done any better this', and I think its worth looking at how they ended up with these problems.

Obviously there's the layoffs and deadlines which are self-imposed limitations, and obviously those have large impact. But there's a more fundamental reason even than that I think. D&D 2024 is not an iterative attempt to improve 5e 2014 so much as it is an attempt to rewrite without the problems it had previously.

To use an analogy, if they were programmers trying to fix a bug, rather than changing the code line by line to try to narrowly fix problems, they deleted the whole file and tried to write it again without the bugs. Anyone that has programmed for a large project and encountered some heavily commented esoteric barely working code class written by some long gone senior engineer will be familiar with that temptation, but also why you would never want to do that, because the end result is that you almost always end up with at least same amount of new different bugs as you run into all the edge cases and compromises the original author did. A lot of the oddities of 5e 2014 were trying to work around specific things, but as they wrote D&D 2024 they tried to fix the things about 5e 2014 people complained about, but not with an awareness for the things 5e 2014 was trying to work around. The easiest example is a shield no longer taking an action. Its easy to see why they thought was clunky and removed it, but that was there to stop something specific from happening, and removing it caused what is almost certainly a bug.

Each person will have to make their own decision if the list of things D&D 2024 fixes is better than the list of things it breaks, but my contention with it is that most of the things it broke were unnecessary to break if they just approached it differently. D&D 2024 should have either been a direct improvement to 5e 2014 with minimal compromises in breaking new things (a polish edition) or a 6e that brought some new approach in my opinion. I don't really think it would been have been that hard for D&D 2024 to be an uncontroversial improvement to 5e, but they included a bunch of stuff they never polled the public on, and a fair bit of that stuff turns out be rough.

Imagine how much better the reception for D&D 2024 would have been if they had just stuck to the changes that were more or less direct improvements. While someone like me may have problems problems with that since I don't like the power creep, I think we'd see a much more positive reception.

Obviously I don't have any market wide analytics, but another question I saw come up a few times was what the reception actually was. I actually went through all the various public polls I could find and summarized them together awhile (a few subreddit polls, half a dozen YouTuber community polls, a poll from this forum, a few decent sized Discord servers including mine), and came up the current totals of 29% of people are planning to switch, 34% of people are planning to stay on 5e 2014 and 36% of people are some flavor undecided or planning to switch to a non-5e game (the poll are options weren't all the same, so the groups aren't too detailed just broad categories). It varies quite a lot, with some communities at >50% switching, while some communities were <15% switching.

That said, while interesting, there's two caveats to that data. That data is before most people have the rules, so I suspect it more reflects the opinion their favorite influencer/creator that has rules in most cases, though those opinions tend to carry a lot of weight. Second, those are from very heavily invested in D&D communities. The average player is not on D&D forums, D&D subreddits, D&D discords, or D&D YouTube community posts. I would guess the actual number is that >50% of D&D players don't even know what D&D 2024 is.

Anyways, was just catching up on the thread and figured I'd chime in. I'm impressed this thread is still trucking right along >400 replies in. Lots of interesting stuff to read here (...even if a maybe 100 of those are debates on Grappling mechanics!). Perhaps I should add that to 'Carried Over Problems', since the main subjects of discussion (i.e. mounted grappling, if you need to drag creatures, etc) are the same between 5e 2014 and D&D 2024.
 
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I have run into cases where players are still acting like grappling is an unknowable forest of rules, simply from the generational trauma of 3e grappling.
Grappling in 3.5 was awesome. If you were a player. If you were a DM having stupid barbarian win initiative, run past all the guards and grapple your BBEG wizard before he has a chance like my PC did, probably not as awesome. :)
 

2024 Grappling is fine. It just gets weird because it is only seen as an extension of Spike Growth.

The real changes to grapple have been...
a) unreliable to trigger, being a save vs DC (that there is no way to increase)
b) Grappler feat is kind of good (if you have an unarmed damage die already, like from natural weapons)
c) the grappled target has disadvantage on attacking anyone but the grappler
d) monks are the best grapplers, simply because they can bonus action for further grapple/shove attempts

Like I've said before, I don't think it is fine that initiating grapple and maintaining grapple use different formulas.
That is just unnecessarily confusing and inelegant.

I also really do not like that you can now drag an unwilling person around at full speed. It seems blatantly ludicrous.
That some higher level martial had a feature that would let them do it would be fine, that everyone can do it is just silly.
 

I don't really think it would been have been that hard for D&D 2024 to be an uncontroversial improvement to 5e, but they included a bunch of stuff they never polled the public on, and a fair bit of that stuff turns out be rough.
Yeah, and what's funny of course is that they did the same thing with 2014 and that things that they never playtested there were also some of the roughest, and least popular bits of 5E. So they absolutely had a learning opportunity.

Many of the changes they made post-testing just weren't necessary, either, I would offer. They don't markedly improve D&D, even if they weren't rough/messy. They could have just stuck with what they actually tested.

The average player is not on D&D forums, D&D subreddits, D&D discords, or D&D YouTube community posts. I would guess the actual number is that >50% of D&D players don't even know what D&D 2024 is.
I have genuinely been shocked at how little effort WotC have put into publicising both the 50th Anniversary and the 2024 editions. It's weird. I suspect it's connected directly to them firing a bunch of people who might have been involved with that, and seemingly not replacing them, but, it's weird.

2024 Grappling is fine. It just gets weird because it is only seen as an extension of Spike Growth.

The real changes to grapple have been...
a) unreliable to trigger, being a save vs DC (that there is no way to increase)
b) Grappler feat is kind of good (if you have an unarmed damage die already, like from natural weapons)
c) the grappled target has disadvantage on attacking anyone but the grappler
d) monks are the best grapplers, simply because they can bonus action for further grapple/shove attempts
I largely agree, though I don't think it's quite "fine", because grapplers having no real ability to increase the DC feels like a problem to me, esp. as there were grappling-oriented subclasses and the like out there (albeit maybe more with 3PPs than official), and thus the only way to "leverage" grappling is to increase the number of saves you force the target to take (hence basically only Monks are good at it). It would of course also be a problem if it was too easy to increase the DC too high, but I'm unconvinced the way it's done here is good. Maybe it's not worse than the previous version? But it feels kind of like it's a change for the sake of change - or more accurately, a change for no actual overall gain.
 
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