D&D General Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast the First Magic Missile: Why Gygax Still Matters to Me

This brings up two slightly related issues-

I love Gygax's words (High Gygaxian) in the old D&D products. But the Gord novels? The first one is ... okay. The others vary in quality (IMO) from dire to unreadable.

Second, I think either the Hollywood time, or age, or the evolution of the hobby broke something in Gygax. Cyborg Commando was godawful. His plans for a 2e were ... well, I would say that, to quote Gygax, "the antithesis of weal." For a decade, he was arguably the most creative force in the hobby- even putting aside the fact that he brought D&D to life. Afterwards? Eh....

I never tried any of Gygax's fantasy novels. Given how I generally feel about D&D novels, I assumed I wouldn't like them.

But I do agree that when Gygax was in his prime he knew what he was doing running the game. The 1e AD&D DMG at once contains both some of the most timeless and most absurd ideas I've ever read about TTRPGs, and given that Gygax later said that he never ran the game using any of the rules in the DMG I think that only makes sense. I think that's also why B/X feels more cohesive and well-designed in general, in spite of the fact that it's a little too simple and still has combat structures that are a little to complicated to bother with.

I really do need to finish reading The Elusive Shift. Somewhere in that transition, I think, Gary got lost. I don't think he was superannuated by the rise of narrative roleplaying. I think he got trapped in the DM vs player mentality. Perhaps he simply sat at the table with too many people that were gung-ho to beat Gary Gygax at his own game. I can only imagine the awful things fame does to someone. So much of what he said or wrote seems to vascillate between brilliant nuggets of TTRPG theory and just seemingly malicious truculence.
 

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I really do need to finish reading The Elusive Shift. Somewhere in that transition, I think, Gary got lost. I don't think he was superannuated by the rise of narrative roleplaying. I think he got trapped in the DM vs player mentality. Perhaps he simply sat at the table with too many people that were gung-ho to beat Gary Gygax at his own game. I can only imagine the awful things fame does to someone. So much of what he said or wrote seems to vascillate between brilliant nuggets of TTRPG theory and just seemingly malicious truculence.
I do feel, from my experience, narrative roleplaying was 'strange' to him. Now, players were expected to take roles and act accordingly, but I don't think he was a fan of players giving Big Theater Kid Energy at the table.

And as far as player vs DM mentality, I think he saw that as a challenge, rather than the DM being an equal at the table. I wish I had a link to the story of the golden golem under Castle Zagyg(?) that no player was ever able to catch. No matter what they tried the statue of gold and priceless gems would find a way around it - too strong to be netted, too fast to be meleed, they'd always just see it off in the distance etc.

I think you get a sense of the player vs DM reading the example encounter in the AD&D 1e DMG - where they figure out the sliding plate in the ceiling, and as the thief opens it, random ghouls grab him, paralyze him and pull him up into the darkness.
 

I think you get a sense of the player vs DM reading the example encounter in the AD&D 1e DMG - where they figure out the sliding plate in the ceiling, and as the thief opens it, random ghouls grab him, paralyze him and pull him up into the darkness.
I'm not sure that this demonstrates a player vs DM mentality so much as a willingness to let the dice roll how they may.
 

And as far as player vs DM mentality, I think he saw that as a challenge, rather than the DM being an equal at the table.
As a DM, I'm not an equal at the table. I have a lot more control over the game than any individual player. I don't see myself in an adversarial role with the players, but I'm there to make sure their characters have challenges. I love it when the player characters do something clever and unexpected, but then I love it when they get gobbled up or mangled by some foul beast as well.
 


The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones
I would just like to point out that this quote was part of a crowd-manipulating oration. Shakespeare intended it to be ironic, he didn’t believe it to be true.

Certainly, the opposite was true of Julius Caesar!
 

As a DM, I'm not an equal at the table. I have a lot more control over the game than any individual player. I don't see myself in an adversarial role with the players, but I'm there to make sure their characters have challenges. I love it when the player characters do something clever and unexpected, but then I love it when they get gobbled up or mangled by some foul beast as well.
By 'equal at the table', what I meant to state was that the DM has an equal right to enjoyment at the table. If both the DM and the players have enjoyment from 'Well, they never check the floor for traps so I'll put pit traps in' 'Oh, now they're using ten foot poles to avoid those traps, so now I'll create ear worms for when they listen at doors' - as was the case in Gygax's table from their own stories - so be it. Gygax CLEARLY enjoyed running his table, and clearly his players enjoyed rising to the challenges. BUT, again if you read the 1e DMG when he's talking about campaign time tracking, he also clearly incentivized his players to play every single day and specifically cites times where a group couldn't get together so another group managed to clear out monsters before they could, thus getting material benefit in-game.

TLDR - I mean the DM to be equal in the sense that they should get as much back out of the game - through their creations - as the players get by interacting in that setting.
 

I would just like to point out that this quote was part of a crowd-manipulating oration. Shakespeare intended it to be ironic, he didn’t believe it to be true.

Certainly, the opposite was true of Julius Caesar!
Not only that, but I find that "don't speak ill of the dead" is a tool frequently used by those who, innocently or not, wish to keep a silence over the questionable or harmful things the deceased did before their death. It is, of course, quite true that the dead can no longer "fight back," so to speak, and thus one should take extra care to be scrupulous. But if someone really did demonstrably do or say something particularly deserving of negative recognition, I'm going to take a pretty dim view of being told, "No, you aren't allowed to talk about that ever again."

There is a time and a place for respect for the dead. And there is a time and a place to call the dead to account--as an example to the living of what not to do. Blanket statements can't capture that kind of thing. Sometimes, it is in fact best to let questionable choices and deeds fade into the mist. Other times, that's precisely what you cannot do.

By 'equal at the table', what I meant to state was that the DM has an equal right to enjoyment at the table. If both the DM and the players have enjoyment from 'Well, they never check the floor for traps so I'll put pit traps in' 'Oh, now they're using ten foot poles to avoid those traps, so now I'll create ear worms for when they listen at doors' - as was the case in Gygax's table from their own stories - so be it. Gygax CLEARLY enjoyed running his table, and clearly his players enjoyed rising to the challenges. BUT, again if you read the 1e DMG when he's talking about campaign time tracking, he also clearly incentivized his players to play every single day and specifically cites times where a group couldn't get together so another group managed to clear out monsters before they could, thus getting material benefit in-game.

TLDR - I mean the DM to be equal in the sense that they should get as much back out of the game - through their creations - as the players get by interacting in that setting.
Though if we're going down that path, the sword cuts both ways, and it cuts the DM deeper...or, at least, it should because the DM is the one claiming sweeping authority over others. I find, all too often, that there is a distinctive emphasis on DM "absolute power" (using quotes for a reason, multiple posters on this very forum have explicitly and repeatedly insisted upon it) and essentially zero emphasis on DM responsibility.

And that, I feel, is where a lot of Gygax's DM instructions/advice/guidance goes wrong. He recommends taking on great power, and using it in deeply irresponsible, often actively detrimental ways. Turning players against one other. Punishing/rewarding out-of-game behaviors with in-game results, and in-game behaviors with out-of-game results. Actively overriding player interests and treating their input at best as foolish flights of fancy, and at worst as nefarious, active meddling in the DM's world (because in the ultimate Gygaxian style, it is the DM's world--you just happen to play in it...or more often, you just happen to be given the opportunity to witness it.)
 

BUT, again if you read the 1e DMG when he's talking about campaign time tracking, he also clearly incentivized his players to play every single day and specifically cites times where a group couldn't get together so another group managed to clear out monsters before they could, thus getting material benefit in-game.
The problem is that we can’t extrapolate too much from the 1e DMG to Gygax’s home game, because even he over the course of time discussed that he didn’t follow many of the rules he wrote.
 

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