D&D General D&D 2024 does not deserve to succeed

[mamba]

The game bait and switched you and hoped you like zero to hero to earn being the action hero.

eh, plenty of hero stories do just that, I do not consider that a bait and switch. Being a hero does not mean you are the strong one beating up the weak, that is a bully.

If I wanted to be a superhero from level 1 on, why even have levels

 

[Minigiant]

eh, plenty of hero stories do just that, I do not consider that a bait and switch. Being a hero does not mean you are the strong one beating up the weak, that is a bully.

If I wanted to be a superhero from level 1 on, why even have levels

That's not how D&D is pitched though. Not by fans nor product creators.

It's "Do you want to play as a character like Jamie Lannister, Hercules, Gandalf, or Lupin?"
not
"Do you want to play a blacksmith, choir singer, or street rat who might live long enough to be a Knight Commander, High Paladin, or Prince of Thieves?"

Not to mention that in 0e, 1e, and 2e, your chance of living long enough to be heroic was low without DM favoritism.
That was the bait (the hero is level 10...) and switch (....You are level 1 and will die 5 times trying to get there.).

So yeah the game shifted to match the pitch. 4e and 5e more or less made you heroically powerful by level 5. And they marketed that you could and would get there.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

plenty of hero stories do just that

And plenty don’t. Aragorn, Conan, Elric etc are pretty strong from the moment we first meet them.

But you are right about the heroes journey being baked into D&D. Real people do not change to that extent or that quickly.

Another difference with Traveller, which doesn’t have levels and very little change in character abilities.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Do you know how many of my 5e campaigns have ended in TPKs? Practically all of them. The others end because it gets boring because there's no challenge. Two extremes. Because there is no guidance.

You do seem to have more problems than about anyone else I know of though. Make one wonder.

 

[Remathilis]

eh, plenty of hero stories do just that, I do not consider that a bait and switch. Being a hero does not mean you are the strong one beating up the weak, that is a bully.

If I wanted to be a superhero from level 1 on, why even have levels

I think it's less a matter of strong/weak and a matter of competency.

Old D&D assumed level 1 PCs are incompetent. Literally, they are terrible at their jobs. A fighter was marginally better than a commoner, a magic-user had 1 spell, a cleric didn't even have spells (just turn undead, which only worked on a scant few types) and thieves had less than one in five chance of successfully using any skill (climb walls excluded). Despite what the level titles implied; you weren't even worth the rock needed to make a gravestone until you were at least 3rd level. The reason 5th level was the sweet spot was it was finally the level where you had a better chance of succeeding on a given action than failing.

Contrast to 5e, where a level 1 fighter is already a better warrior than most NPCs, a level 1 wizard has a few spell options, a level 1 cleric likewise has good magic, and a level 1 rogue can succeed most of his core skill checks more often than not. 5e PCs start out already with some ability to succeed and it grows from there. Come 3rd level, they are reasonably good at their chosen class and by 5th, they are experts.

That said, most media still portray their characters as competent even when they are starting out. Harry Potter might not be the best wizard, but he is certainly naturally gifted enough to keep up the much more powerful antagonists he encounters. Luke Skywalker is a crack shot with a blaster and the best brush pilot this side of Mois Eisley and that's before he learns the Force.

The bait was always implying "you could play your favorite fantasy heroes" and the switch was "one day, if you're lucky."

 

[Distracted DM]

That's not how D&D is pitched though. Not by fans nor product creators.

It's "Do you want to play as a character like Jamie Lannister, Hercules, Gandalf, or Lupin?"
not
"Do you want to play a blacksmith, choir singer, or street rat who might live long enough to be a Knight Commander, High Paladin, or Prince of Thieves?"

Not to mention that in 0e, 1e, and 2e, your chance of living long enough to be heroic was low without DM favoritism.
That was the bait (the hero is level 10...) and switch (....You are level 1 and will die 5 times trying to get there.).

So yeah the game shifted to match the pitch. 4e and 5e more or less made you heroically powerful by level 5. And they marketed that you could and would get there.

Yeah, "you make characters like these great heroes" really doesn't match the "level 1 fighter, was a farmer/street urchin/guildsman until a few months ago when he started training to get his level 1 fighter skills." Playing "dice fall where they may," tier 1 could result in a lot of those prospective heroes getting murk'd. But when they hit 3 that's a good bump for most, and then at tier 2 they are indeed heroic.

 

[mamba]

I think it's less a matter of strong/weak and a matter of competency.

Old D&D assumed level 1 PCs are incompetent.

agreed, they did start out too incompetent, esp the Thief. That doesn’t mean it should not be a journey where you start as reasonably competent and turn into a hero rather than starting out as the hero already

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Not intending to be snarky at all, but writing completely in earnest... Is 2024 improved at all? I've heard of completely broken spells, combinations that don't work, all discovered within hours of getting the book.
I've heard "worse than 2014" from reviewers ... several of them. I've heard it called a rush job.
I get the impression that this is just a product for a product's sake - no real improvement or refinement to the game.

I think it is improved a lot but I have not played it yet. The book looks like it is far easier to use. All the stuff one would expect to be together is together and the class information is complete. The glossary seems useful but that would depend on experience on actual use.
The classes have had many quality of life improvements. Some classes have had massive boosts.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean 4e is much more of the hero vibe than 5e. So if anything, 5e has lessened that, I don't really see 2024 as much of a change. At least not in our playtest. 5e is also a lot easier to play as a gritty realism than 4e, you don't have to change much to slide that direction.

Which is why I preferred 5e to 4e, among other reasons.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It still had plenty. It was Conan, Aragorn, Doctor Strange, Grey Mouser and Van Helsing the early years. Whist Traveller was the crew of Serenity minus River.

Those are stories, not tropes built into the mechanics. I'm not sure what you're talking about.