D&D (2024) Spirt Guardians

[Mistwell]

It's definitely a feature to push enemies into the zones.

Now dragging the cleric might of been an oversight.

It's not an oversight.

Monk Level 10 Abiity: "Step of the Wind. When you expend a Focus Point to use Step of the Wind, you can choose a willing creature within 5 feet of yourself that is Large or smaller. You move the creature with you until the end of your turn. The creature’s movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks."

We know this was tested during playtesting for this specific spell.

 

[Oofta]

As I mentioned in the thread that spawned this one, I dislike the 2024 Spirit Guardians changes because the upper bound on the spell's utility is now dependent on what your group considers creative versus what your group considers ridiculous. Personally I find navigating that dynamic less fun than the straight tactical challenge provided by the 2014 version of the spell.

I would also note that in terms of maximizing effectiveness of the spell, grappling and dragging is probably surpassed by having a small-sized Cleric ride shotgun on a mount controlled in sequence by each of the other PCs on their turns. (Alternatively, the mount could pull a vehicle the Cleric is on rather than the mount carrying two creatures.) Every time one of the PCs takes control of the mount its initiative changes to the match theirs, letting the mount move and Dash repeatedly. And since mounting/dismounting requires movement rather than an action, the other PCs still get to take their actions (although they'll provoke opportunity attacks on themselves or the mount if they want to get close enough to make melee attacks) on top of the Spirit Guardians damage.

So, without hard-to-set-up Legendary or Lair Actions providing off-turn movement, the maximum number of turns Spirit Guardians activates each round may be once on the Cleric's turn, once on the Cleric's readied action on an enemy's turn (although they'll only get half their movement on the readied action since they want to end up back on the mount), once on each of the other PC's turns as they control the mount, once on each of the PC's allies' (or summoned creatures') turns if they're able to ride a mount, and then individually on any enemy who ends their turn in the emanation.

And there's no need for your allies to build around this tactic. But if they do, it goes from lots of damage to ludicrous. For example, the 2024 Animate Objects spell explicitly counts the animated objects as creatures that each have their own turn. So, as long the objects have the right "anatomy" to ride (or grapple) Spirit Guardians can trigger on each Bard or Sorcerer or Wizard's turn and again on each of their animated object's turn. A 17th level party of 3 Wizards or Sorcerers or Bards and 1 Cleric can trigger Spirit Guardians on 23 turns each round for 10 rounds using one 3rd and three 5th level slot.

I would rule that in order to control a mount, you have to be mounted on the animal. In addition, it likely has to be a trained war mount if it's going into battle like this.

If it gets overblown I'll just enforce my generic "no exploits" rule and shut it down. That kind of game may be fun for some people and more power to them, but I always warn people that exploits go both ways. Want to do this? Sure. Hope you like my swarm of sprite clerics riding ravens*.

*I kid, it has never escalated to that level.

 

[mellored]

I would rule that in order to control a mount, you have to be mounted on the animal. In addition, it likely has to be a trained war mount if it's going into battle like this.

Mounts have been fixed. They move on your turn.

 

[Xetheral]

I would rule that in order to control a mount, you have to be mounted on the animal. In addition, it likely has to be a trained war mount if it's going into battle like this.

If it gets overblown I'll just enforce my generic "no exploits" rule and shut it down. That kind of game may be fun for some people and more power to them, but I always warn people that exploits go both ways. Want to do this? Sure. Hope you like my swarm of sprite clerics riding ravens*.

*I kid, it has never escalated to that level.

Each PC would be mounting the animal, riding it around zapping people with the small-sized Cleric riding behind them (and taking their own action), and then dismounting to make room for the next PC.

But I entirely agree that this won't see play. I'm just frustrated that the upper bound is now based on the table dynamic rather than on the mechanics.

 

[Xetheral]

Mounts have been fixed. They move on your turn.

That doesn't change anything--contolled mounts always moved on the rider's turn. The problem is when there are many riders in sequence on the same round. Is there another change that would fix this?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It's not an oversight.

Monk Level 10 Abiity: "Step of the Wind. When you expend a Focus Point to use Step of the Wind, you can choose a willing creature within 5 feet of yourself that is Large or smaller. You move the creature with you until the end of your turn. The creature’s movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks."

We know this was tested during playtesting for this specific spell.

Specific beats general. This is not a grapple. So if the one monk is dragging the cleric around, I think that is ok. I still stand with my ruling: only one drag per turn.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That doesn't change anything--contolled mounts always moved on the rider's turn. The problem is when there are many riders in sequence on the same round. Is there another change that would fix this?

Common sense.

 

[Oofta]

That doesn't change anything--contolled mounts always moved on the rider's turn. The problem is when there are many riders in sequence on the same round. Is there another change that would fix this?

I don't have a physical book yet, I don't see where they talk about mounts and riders. But in my game? Even if it was, say an elephant, there's no way you have multiple people controlling the mount.

Again, this just comes down to my telling people when they join my game that I don't allow exploits, and this is one.

 

[Xetheral]

As I have stated (and restated), common sense, (or, in other words, a given table's boundary between creativity and ridiculousness, or between fair play and exploits) being the new upper boundary on the effectiveness of Spirit Guardians is indeed my issue with the changes to the spell.

I don't like the changes precisely because trying to use the spell effectively is now an exercise in figuring out where the line is at one's table and being sure not to cross it, rather than a more straightforward tactical challenge. The need to invoke common sense or general rules against exploits in no way rebuts my objection to the changes; indeed, it reinforces them.

 

[Mistwell]

The rule is, "Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves, but every foot of movement costs it 1 extra foot unless you are Tiny or two or more sizes smaller than it."

You can carry Strength Score x 30 pounds. You can drag up to Strength Score x 60 pounds, but if the weight exceeds the carry amount, your speed is reduced to 5 feet.

And from the Grappler feat, "Fast Wrestler. You don't have to spend extra movement to move a creature Grappled by you if the creature is your size or smaller."