D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

D&D (2024) D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)


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So every marriage that doesn't have one is guaranteed to eventually hit irreconcilable conflicts?
no

They literally are.
no they are not, compromise where possible, otherwise the DM has the final word and the player(s) can accept it or leave the table

For the umpteen-millionth time,

I DON'T AND NEVER HAVE.​

Will you please stop putting words in my mouth? It'd be really nice.
eh, you do not allow the DM to ever put his foot down, so yes, the DM has to cave, that is just the other side of the same coin. I have not seen you make the same demand of the players…

Such cases are rare in the extreme. It then becomes "rare in the extreme" squared that such a thing happens where absolutely no one is behaving fully in good faith.

Since folks have spoken so derisively of hypothetical and theory: When does this actually happen? What are these alleged incredibly common utterly irreconcilable conflicts?
yes, such cases should be rare, no one said they are common, only that they exist.

Nope! Because both sides have to be willing to meet somewhere in the middle.
what if both sides are willing to budge a little, but not enough to reach a middle ground they can agree on

Because nobody is calling any shots. That's the point. You talk it out like reasonable people.
people are rarely reasonable

So we're exactly back to where we were before: The DM forces their will on everyone else.
as a last resort, sure, otherwise everyone else would be forcing their will on the DM at that point

Because that's somehow wonderful and beautiful and awesome.
no, because no compromise could be reached and because at that point there isn’t really any other option left

But a player hoping for even the tiniest bit of reciprocity is an offense, an enemy, something to be driven out like the horrible awful monster it oh so obviously is.
nonsense, compromise is always better, but if for some reason that cannot be reached what do you suggest, that the player can force their will on the DM? There simply is no other feasible step left

Do you not see this?
I see that if no compromise can be reached neither side can force the other to accept something they do not like. So either the player walks, or all players walk and the DM is without a group.

What does not happen is that the DM has to accept the player’s proposal (or however far the player was willing to ‘compromise’) because that is forcing the player’s will onto the DM. Not sure why you do not see that.

As soon as someone asks for reciprocity, for the DM to compromise too, they're immediately told, "OH, SO NOW THE DM IS THE PLAYERS' SLAVE HUH? HOW IS THAT FAIR?"
again, nonsense, accepting the proposal or finding a compromise are the norm, I am talking about the rare exception where the two sides reach no compromise, at that point there is nothing else left
 

There's...nothing wrong with changing how people earn XP in DW. There are numerous rules options out there which do exactly that, e.g. altering Bonds (something I myself have done), or altering the specifics of the End of Session move.

As an example, when I do the End of Session move, my questions are as follows:

Did we learn something new and important about the world?
Did we overcome a notable monster, enemy, or obstacle?
Did we loot a memorable treasure or form a meaningful alliance?


Changes underlined. First question has not needed any changes, learning is a regular but not guaranteed occurrence and I haven't seen any need to alter it. Second question, we don't always fight enemies, but we do often have sessions that are about figuring out a way around some kind of significant obstacle or impediment, or resolving a major conflict, or otherwise doing something that isn't about overcoming a person or monster. Part of that is I wanted intrigue to matter a lot in this game, but part of it is that my players in general just prefer to resolve things peacefully when they can, or like helping people who aren't enemies but do have conflicts that need resolving. Third question, again, this is about the intrigue stuff--oftentimes, the most valuable thing in a heavily mercantile Arabian Nights inspired setting is not what you own, but who you know.

Hence why I actually quoted the text of the books where it discusses what changing the rules may do to the game, and why it is unwise to do so without forethought, care, and (in most cases) testing. I've been lucky in that the stuff I started with was already pretty good, that is, testing did not end up requiring much in the way of changes. Most of the time, when I need to change something, it's because I was either not generous enough or (more commonly) too generous to the players with a new magic item or class feature, and need to tweak it to fit, boosting it or pulling it back just a little.
Why are we even talking about PBtA games in a thread speculating about a book coming out for the latest edition of D&D? The two have little in common with each other, and comparing them does little but irritate both sides. They have fundamentally different approaches to mechanical resolution.
 


can go either way, if it is not just one person having an issue, agreed
compromise where possible, otherwise the DM has the final word and the player(s) can accept it or leave the table
Or the players have the final word, and the GM can accept it or leave the table.

I don't understand why you keep insisting on asymmetry over who is obliged to reach consensus.
 

Or the players have the final word, and the GM can accept it or leave the table.

I don't understand why you keep insisting on asymmetry over who is obliged to reach consensus.
Well, in traditional tabletop games the DM does the lion's share of the work. I see no problem with giving them increased authority as a result, no matter which side I'm on at the time. But I expect you know that stance, even if you don't share it.
 

What does not happen is that the DM has to accept the player’s proposal (or however far the player was willing to ‘compromise’) because that is forcing the player’s will onto the DM. Not sure why you do not see that.

My girlfriend doesn't like sushi. I do. We can never go to a sushi place as a date. Is she imposing her will on me? What if I take her to the sushi place anyway? Am I imposing my will on her? Who decides whose will is more important?

You are framing an interpersonal relationship as a power struggle one where you feel one party (the DM) has innate right to there will be done and the other as subservient (the player). Akin to saying since I'm the one paying for the date, I get whatever food I want regardless of my partner's preference. That all makes sense in an abstract argument on a message board, but as I point out time and again fails in real life scenarios where power dynamics aren't cut and dry.

I will reiterate that DMs who have a my-way-or-highway attitude better have a large pool of potential players lined up if they feel every disagreement ends with them winning and the player leaving. Eventually, they alienate all their players.

Now excuse me, I'm going to go back to browsing Tinder for a girl who likes sushi.
 

My girlfriend doesn't like sushi. I do. We can never go to a sushi place as a date. Is she imposing her will on me? What if I take her to the sushi place anyway? Am I imposing my will on her? Who decides whose will is more important?

You are framing an interpersonal relationship as a power struggle one where you feel one party (the DM) has innate right to there will be done and the other as subservient (the player). Akin to saying since I'm the one paying for the date, I get whatever food I want regardless of my partner's preference. That all makes sense in an abstract argument on a message board, but as I point out time and again fails in real life scenarios where power dynamics aren't cut and dry.

I will reiterate that DMs who have a my-way-or-highway attitude better have a large pool of potential players lined up if they feel every disagreement ends with them winning and the player leaving. Eventually, they alienate all their players.

Now excuse me, I'm going to go back to browsing Tinder for a girl who likes sushi.
Not a great metaphor, to be fair. One can always get sushi alone, or with friends. Not having it on a date seems a reasonable sacrifice. And many would argue that the power dynamics in a traditional RPG are quite different from a romantic relationship anyway.
 

Well, in traditional tabletop games the DM does the lion's share of the work. I see no problem with giving them increased authority as a result
RPGing is a leisure activity. People should be playing with other people because they enjoy playing with them, not because they're under some illusion of obligation arising from some other person doing work.

If a GM doesn't enjoy whatever work they are doing to prepare, they shouldn't be doing it! And they certainly shouldn't be using it as some sort of "guilt trip" to make others go along with them. That's not a good social dynamic.
 

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