D&D (2024) D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

[mamba]

Yeah, video games made that whole gameplay loop much tighter

yes and no, early games like Dungeon Master were in a dungeon, but even then you did not gain XP by finding gold, and just like D&D, CRPGs left that loop behind pretty fast. They are much closer to the 2e, ‘open’ world and heroic goals approach (and by extension every D&D edition since) than the dungeon delve loop

 

[mamba]

It's impossible for a player to objectively know what actions are rewarded to what degree.

and in 1e it is pretty unclear what actions get you the treasure or how much of it

 

[niklinna]

Yes, and that is not a bad thing.

Hm, I don't recall saying it was.

Games evolve over time. Compare any old MUD from the 90s to a modern MMO. Beyond the obvious change in graphics, the game loop has expanded. D&D is similar to allow a variety of adventures that Gary didn't initially envision. Yes, dungeon crashing is still possible, but the game is so much bigger now.

Right. Bigger, and different from what it was. Which is what @pemerton said, and which seems pretty plainly obvious, and neither of which either of us said was a Bad Thing.

 

[Oofta]

this relies on the two ‘sides’ finding a compromise that works for both. That obviously is the preferred option, but if neither side is willing to compromise (far enough to reach a middle ground the other side finds acceptable) then one side will have to end up calling the shot and all the other side can do is accept it or leave

It's especially difficult to come to a compromise when you have up to 7 people. But other than broad styles of play? Most people don't really have a strong opinion.

that is not at all where I started, I have consistently said that one side essentially giving an ultimatum is the last resort. Ideally ideas / suggestions get accepted outright, or a compromise is found. I agree that advice that says to never compromise is BS, haven’t heard that in ages however

I will also say that I do have some red lines, both as a player and DM. I'm not at all interested in evil campaigns for example. So I won't DM a game with evil PCs or "neutral" PCs that do evil things on a regular basis. Of course I wouldn't play in a game like that either and have walked away from games that I felt were not a good match for me.

But the thing is I let people know this, and a handful of other things, when I open up invites to a game. It's not "My way or the highway", it's "These the highways I have available and the general destination, would you like to join us?"

I've been told that ultimate DM power is Good Thing Actually...

Depends on what you mean. If there is disagreement, someone has to make the final call. Nobody is forcing people to play at my table even if I do believe the DM makes the final call.

As long as the DM clearly states their goals and expectations while also open to and listens to suggestions I don't see an issue. The DM may still say "no" to those suggestions and sometimes may even make a decision that some people at the table disagree with. If people come to the table with strong opinions, there are always going to be the occasional disagreement and times when there simply isn't any compromise.

I don't allow evil PCs when I DM. I will never compromise on that and I had a player (soon replaced) that left the game because of it. But there was no argument, no hard feelings, I was just never going to provide the experience they want. I don't see an issue.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree that hexcrawl rules were not as detailed as rules assuming the party was in a dungeon. However, you are assuming a somewhat static dungeon where monsters wait behind doors for PCs to discover them, and many of the better adventures of that time neither advised or allowed that. DMs were encouraged to create movement in the dungeon, to restock it, have the enemies use tactics as if they were defending their homes, and so forth. Not to mention, the DM is assumed to literally create their own dungeon in 1e, so I’m not sure I agree with what you’re saying about the players control when encounters occur.

Which modules? I mean, nobody will disagree with you that the GM has some leeway in certain areas. Gygax even discussed the techniques of what we now generally call 'illusionism' or similar techniques in the service of generating a good game experience. So we know the intent was never something totally deterministic.

OTOH I don't know of any module which goes beyond the level of perhaps suggesting the GM consider factors like monsters reacting to intruders perhaps. Even then it's clear that these adventures were counting on no such thing. G1 is a fine example. Realistically no party would get far before raising a general alarm, at which point the situation will be almost immediately hopeless for the party.

Yes, we made our own dungeons, what does that change? The rules for how they work are quite clear! You can make up unique stuff, but it still has to be coded in, how it works, what dice throws relate to it, time expenditures, etc. 1e's rules are pretty complete on the subject.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

It's steadily been moving away from that since late 1e, so where do you want to place that "different game" marker?

It seems like we could start with an argument that the marker belongs around, say, late 1e.

 

[Oofta]

When it comes to style of play, I would just say that it's always been table dependent. The rules may have nudged people towards one style or another, but especially for the first editions of the game we approached the rules like the Pirates Code. The DMG was more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

True story! I had a dream last night that I went back in time to 1974 and taught Gygax to play 5e. He didn't like it.

 

[mamba]

It seems like we could start with an argument that the marker belongs around, say, late 1e.

it started moving away in 1975 already, within a year or so of OD&D being released. Heck I do not even think Blackmoor was played strictly like that, so not even the inventors of D&D played like that at their tables and not following this loop predates D&D altogether, with D&D never fully succeeding to establish that loop even for D&D tables.

It might have been the loop Gygax described, but that is about it.

 

[mamba]

True story! I had a dream last night that I went back in time to 1974 and taught Gygax to play 5e. He didn't like it.

I can see him not liking it