D&D (2024) D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

[AbdulAlhazred]

Reacting to intruders is certainly a big difference compared to what other posters have laid out. I named several modules including Ravenloft, Dark Tower, Caverns of Thracia, ToEE, and Against the Giants that suppose that inhabitants of the dungeons may have different motivations, may ally with the party against other factions, may hunt the party down rather than stay in their coded area, strategize against the party. Thats certainly ground for the DM to apply their creativity rather than random rolls dictated by the 1e sourcebooks.

I've run G1,2,3 many times, they're extremely sparse on anything but room description. There are a few places where it's noted that noises of battle or fleeing monsters could bring another group of monsters from a nearby place. I recall nothing at all which discussed alliances with giants and such.

ToEE is equally unsophisticated, there's a bit more discussion of monsters reacting, and I think there are a couple of places where you can gain an ally if you do specific things. But it has been, probably 40 years since I cracked open a copy.

The other one I am familiar with is Ravenloft and yes, it spells out some things the PCs can do. The problem with it is that the game really has no support for what it's trying to do. It is exactly illustrating what @pemerton pointed out.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Didn't Keep on the Borderlands talk at some length about just that? Or am I misremembering?

Right, KotB has a brief discussion on considering some limited changes, but what would result? The GM would maybe alter the key a bit. Maybe a trap appears, or some monster moves to a different room. None of this changes the nature of the adventure. Most of is presented as a stick for the GM to use to deter players from 5 minute work days. It's certainly not a story device!

 

[TiQuinn]

I've run G1,2,3 many times, they're extremely sparse on anything but room description. There are a few places where it's noted that noises of battle or fleeing monsters could bring another group of monsters from a nearby place. I recall nothing at all which discussed alliances with giants and such.

ToEE is equally unsophisticated, there's a bit more discussion of monsters reacting, and I think there are a couple of places where you can gain an ally if you do specific things. But it has been, probably 40 years since I cracked open a copy.

The other one I am familiar with is Ravenloft and yes, it spells out some things the PCs can do. The problem with it is that the game really has no support for what it's trying to do. It is exactly illustrating what @pemerton pointed out.

Heck, Ravenloft’s so popular it spawned its own 2nd edition campaign setting!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Heck, Ravenloft’s so popular it spawned its own 2nd edition campaign setting!

And it had a great run.

 

[Azzy]

It seems like we could start with an argument that the marker belongs around, say, late 1e.

Sure, but I just find it a little humorous that D&D became a different game during the same edition of the game.

 

[TiQuinn]

Sure, but I just find it a little humorous that D&D became a different game during the same edition of the game.

WELL ACKSHUALLY… (j/k)

I always thought of Dark Tower as being the first module that really gave NPCs various motivations and encouraged factions, etc but because it was a Judges Guild adventure not as many people are aware of it.

 

[pemerton]

So AD&D, as Gygax intended, is Gauntlet. You wander around endless mazes, fighting or avoiding monsters and collecting treasure that adds to your high score (XP) until you die. In essence, it's about collecting the highest score you can before your luck runs out.

Yeah, I can see why the game moved away from that.

Well, I think the difference from Gauntlet would be that (i) the fiction is part of the framing and resolution, and hence (ii) the variety of player-side moves, and GM side-moves - including the set-up for the latter, especially via "tricks" - is going to be much greater.

But anyway, and as @niklinna posted, it seems to have been a pretty successful game model!

 

[pemerton]

And as I have already posted, the game was always this. The very fact that the GM creates the dungeon, selects the monsters, chooses the treasure, places traps, and sets NPC motivations means that the “GM decides” how the game is going to be engaged with to a large degree.

<snip>

all the talk of skilled play, successful play, “GM decides” - these are distinctions that I’m not seeing as very important, if they really exist as distinctions at all

Well, those are distinctions that are pretty important to me. My general experience is that RPGers who are not sensitive to them play in a pretty GM-decides framework.

 

[pemerton]

the GM may not have set the win condition itself (find gold) but they still set the parameters to succeed.

No, the game sets the parameters - bring your treasure out of the dungeon, and earn your XP.

The GM designs the dungeon. The players explore and loot the dungeon. The GM adjudicates their efforts in accordance with the rules of the game.

This is not the same as the GM deciding.

making the focus more variable does not mean it has to be ‘GM decides’ it can also be ‘Players decide what they pursue in a sandbox’

How do they find their possible goals? Achieve those goals? And how does this relate to the XP and PC-improvement system?

This is all GM-controlled.

 

[TiQuinn]

Well, those are distinctions that are pretty important to me. My general experience is that RPGers who are not sensitive to them play in a pretty GM-decides framework.

Okay. You see a distinction that I don’t then.