D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Micah Sweet]

And...



You may not see the point. Others do.

So maybe...make sure those tropes aren't perpetuated in your games by not using them?

 

[Minigiant]

I have a New idea for a half-orc origin not involving crossbreeding

Orcs +Radiation = Half Orcs

Got it.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And...



You may not see the point. Others do.

So you think that depicting racism as a bad thing in a story, showing how it hurts people, is "a racist trope?"

 

[Remathilis]

Who won last time?

The moderators when they closed the thread.

 

[TiQuinn]

The moderators when they closed the thread.

Yeah, I increasingly don't see the point any longer.

 

[TiQuinn]

So you think that depicting racism as a bad thing in a story, showing how it hurts people, is "a racist trope?"

There's plenty of other stories that depict the effects of racism depicting real world people and cultures. I don't think there's a need to create a fantasy race, a "half-anything", and then set them at odds as stand-ins for real world racism.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

There's plenty of other stories that depict the effects of racism depicting real world people and cultures. I don't think there's a need to create a fantasy race, a "half-anything", and then set them at odds as stand-ins for real world racism.

Why? What is bad bout this? Why can we not have allegory? Especially if that is not the only story one can tell with those characters, merely an option if one wants to? Like for example in CR the Exandria in most part is very egalitarian species-wise, so if you want to play a half-elf and not deal with such issues that is super easy to do. In fact, in most cases half-elves, half-orcs and uniyas (elf-orcs) are shown in CR to be just a natural outcome of different species peacefully coexisting. But the fact that there exists this one elven culture with these racist values makes it possible to tell stories about that too, if one so chooses. Why is this mere possibility existing somehow a bad thing?

I really want a someone to explain to me how we got to the point where depicting a bad thing in fiction in order to show it is bad became problematic. Like this is some weird horseshoe stuff where supposed progressive values lead to the same outcome as regressive ones.

 

[Remathilis]

Yes, and? The point obviously was their father was a racist prick from somewhat isolationst elven nation. It in no way did show this as a good thing. Not that this is or needs to be the only story one tells with half-elves, but why it is one that should be avoided? And of course we saw different attitude in CR as well. Keyleth is also an half-elf, (daughter of two half-elves,) but from a multispecies commune where no one has any issue with this.

Also not a Critter, so I'm asking for clarification.

1. How much was the father's views emblematic of wider elven society's views? Was the father extreme by elven standards or more or less in line with them?

2. Was the siblings encounter with racism limited to the father and people who believe like he did or was it more widespread?

3. How were they viewed by their human parents and the village prior to its destruction? Did they encounter a lot of prejudice there too?

Part of the problematic element of the half- story is the implication of societal racism, not just any racism. It's not that the father is a bad person for harboring those beliefs, but that elves in general do and somehow remain a Good aligned society. Likewise with humans who view them as others rather than people aren't viewed as evil. And no matter how much D&D has tried to walk back that othering, you'll have people who will complain that it removes the struggle of Tanis, Vex and Vax by making them generally accepted by wider elf and human cultures.

I've got no problem with removing the societal prejudice against half species. I got no problem removing the elf/dwarf hate and the orc/everyone hate either. The PC species in the PHB should at the very least not hate each other on sight. But doing that removes that struggle element people find appealing and perhaps essential to the half species story. Are we willing to remove that element of Tanis's story? @Minigiant seems willing, anyone else?

 

[Micah Sweet]

There's plenty of other stories that depict the effects of racism depicting real world people and cultures. I don't think there's a need to create a fantasy race, a "half-anything", and then set them at odds as stand-ins for real world racism.

They aren't being "set" as anything. There are many possible narratives.

 

[TiQuinn]

Why? What is bad bout this? Why can we not have allegory? Especially if that is not the only story one can tell with those characters, merely an option if one wants to? Like for example in CR the Exandria in most part is very egalitarian species-wise, so if you want to play a half-elf and not deal with such issues that is super easy to do. In fact, in most cases half-elves, half-orcs and uniyas (elf-orcs) are shown in CR to be just a natural outcome of different species peacefully coexisting. But the fact that there exists this one elven culture with these racist values makes it possible to tell stories about that too, if one so chooses. Why is this mere possibility existing somehow a bad thing?

I really want a someone to explain to me how we got to the point where depicting a bad thing in fiction in order to show it is bad became problematic. Like this is some weird horseshoe stuff where supposed progressive values lead to the same outcome as regressive ones.

Well, if you really want someone to explain this, I’d recommend googling James Mendez Hodes who I believe is also a consultant on 5.5e. He’s written a number of blogs and articles on the subject and goes into in far more depth with far more attribution than I could possibly do.