D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Minigiant]

Each species' relationship to every other species as well as any mixed species should be solely in the hands of the setting creator.

If the world builder or the DM creates a setting with contains interracial relations that their players do not like, That's an issue with the world builder or the DM not the game itself.

We stopped having a settings species relations be mechanical and forced onto the core system back in fourth edition.

And with the jump from 2014 to 2024 We decided to give species actual mechanical weight in some way to display their physical and mental differences.

So in 2024 it would have been simple to rewrite those two mixed species in a way that is both unique and devoid of any setting expectations.

WOTC chose not to do so.

They're respect relations on why. But ultimately they dodge the issue and relied on fan apathy, new stuff, (and accidentally with scandal) to get away with doing something that they shouldn't have been able to get away with.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Also not a Critter, so I'm asking for clarification.

1. How much was the father's views emblematic of wider elven society's views? Was the father extreme by elven standards or more or less in line with them?

His views were typical to his home nation of Syngorn, an isolated ancient city of haughty magical elves. These views are not reflective of the elves of Exandia at large.

2. Was the siblings encounter with racism limited to the father and people who believe like he did or was it more widespread?

It was not widespread, no. Most of Exandria is very egalitarian species-wise.

3. How were they viewed by their human parents and the village prior to its destruction? Did they encounter a lot of prejudice there too?

I don't recall any.

Part of the problematic element of the half- story is the implication of societal racism, not just any racism. It's not that the father is a bad person for harboring those beliefs, but that elves in general do and somehow remain a Good aligned society. Likewise with humans who view them as others rather than people aren't viewed as evil. And no matter how much D&D has tried to walk back that othering, you'll have people who will complain that it removes the struggle of Tanis, Vex and Vax by making them generally accepted by wider elf and human cultures.

I think that the idea of "good" or "bad" societies is simplistic. It's not how these things actually work. Each society will have some flaws, and some more positive attributes. And of course societies are composed of individuals, which all obviously do not share same values.

I've got no problem with removing the societal prejudice against half species. I got no problem removing the elf/dwarf hate and the orc/everyone hate either. The PC species in the PHB should at the very least not hate each other on sight. But doing that removes that struggle element people find appealing and perhaps essential to the half species story. Are we willing to remove that element of Tanis's story? @Minigiant seems willing, anyone else?

Well, I think the Critical Role approach exemplified by its varied half-elf stories is a good one. It mostly is not an issue, and in fact mixed species are more often an example of positive relationships between different species. But there still can be people, groups or even entire nations with more negative views, which can be leveraged for story potential if needed.

Like I said earlier, CR campaign one has examples of two different half-elf backgrounds. The twins, with their strained relationship with their prejudiced father, and Keyleth, who is from a hippyish mixed-species commune. And both work just fine as a part of the same setting, as the setting is culturally varied enough that it can display societies with these different attitudes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

His views were typical to his home nation of Syngorn, an isolated ancient city of haughty magical elves. These views are not reflective of the elves of Exandia at large.


It was not widespread, no. Most of Exandria is very egalitarian species-wise.


I don't recall any.


I think that the idea of "good" or "bad" societies is simplistic. It's not how these things actually work. Each society will have some flaws, and some more positive attributes. And of course societies are composed of individuals, which all obviously do not share same values.



Well, I think the Critical Role approach exemplified by its varied half-elf stories is a good one. It mostly is no an issue, and in fact mixed species are more often an example of positive relationships between different species. But there still can be people, groups or even entire nations with more negative views, which can be leveraged for story potential if needed.

Like I said earlier, CR campaign one has examples of two different half-elf backgrounds. The twins, with their strained relationship with their prejudiced father, and Keyleth, who is from a hippyish mixed-species commune. And both work just fine as a part of the same setting, as the setting is culturally varied enough that it can display societies with these different attitudes.

Yeah. I really don't see what's objectionable about this set-up. Like, at all.

 

[Vaalingrade]

So you think that depicting racism as a bad thing in a story, showing how it hurts people, is "a racist trope?"

Man if that was ever the point of gleefully indulging in racist tropes, there'd be a point to this kind of argument.

Instead, it's usually a shallow stab at 'realism', edginess, punishing a player for not playing an actual Tolkien species, or just turning the entire concept into a costume and a theme park attraction.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, if you really want someone to explain this, I’d recommend googling James Mendez Hodes who I believe is also a consultant on 5.5e. He’s written a number of blogs and articles on the subject and goes into in far more depth with far more attribution than I could possibly do.

I'm familiar with him and I've read several of his articles, but it has been a while. If there are some that you feel particularly well articulate the issue could you link to them?

Or you could just try to elaborate on your own views. I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive at any point, but I genuinely don't get this and I'd like to, even if I'd ultimately disagree. I get that different people have different comfort zones, shaped by their different experiences and seek different things from games and stories. Like I get that if one is routinely subjected to prejudice in real life, then it might not be something you want to see more in your leisure activity. Then again, to some people confronting those sort of things in fiction might be empowering. But ultimately I cannot accept the notion that telling stories that depict negative things in order to criticise them is in any way wrong, even though that might not be everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Hussar]

Have you looked at 5e half-elves? They share only one ability. I'm excluding darkvision since every race and it's mother has that ability, so sharing it doesn't mean anything. There's no other race with the 5e half-elf's racial abilities. 3e gave them a bonus with diplomacy and gather information that elves didn't have, and didn't have bonus weapon proficiencies that elves did have. They were very different in 4e as well. In 2e elves could not be bards, half-elves could be bards with unlimited level advancement. Elves could be clerics to 12th level, but half-elves to 14th. Elves could not be druids, half-elves could. In 1e there were also differences in level limits.

In no edition have they ever had exactly the same mechanics. Half-elves have always been unique, though less so in 1e and 2e since the only differences were in classes allowed and class levels.

You have a unique definition of unique that I do not share. Half elves as “elf light” does not make them unique. If the only thing that differentiates two races is a couple of skill bonuses…. That’s not unique.

At least now the characters will actually be different.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

You have a unique definition of unique that I do not share. Half elves as “elf light” does not make them unique. If the only thing that differentiates two races is a couple of skill bonuses…. That’s not unique.

At least now the characters will actually be different.

I mean, 5.5 species mechanics are so minimal, that not much differentiates between any species.

 

[Maxperson]

You have a unique definition of unique that I do not share. Half elves as “elf light” does not make them unique. If the only thing that differentiates two races is a couple of skill bonuses…. That’s not unique.

At least now the characters will actually be different.

Show me just one other race with the same combination of abilities that half-elves have. If you can, I will concede that they are not unique.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean, 5.5 species mechanics are so minimal, that not much differentiates between any species.

Is this another stealth 'on no, some species don't get a net +1 to some rolls so now they're all the same' argument again?

 

[Mecheon]

Show me just one other race with the same combination of abilities that half-elves have. If you can, I will concede that they are not unique.

Elf (Darkvision and Fey Ancestry) and humans (Versitile is just their skill bonus but stronger). Almost like they're half of humans, and half of elves.

Avarial and aquatic elves have unique combinations of abilities, but we still consider them under Elf overall. Why should half elf be treated any differently?