D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Micah Sweet]

Elf (Darkvision and Fey Ancestry) and humans (Versitile is just their skill bonus but stronger). Almost like they're half of humans, and half of elves.

Avarial and aquatic elves have unique combinations of abilities, but we still consider them under Elf overall. Why should half elf be treated any differently?

Now they're apparently all of humans or all of elves.

 

[Remathilis]

Elf (Darkvision and Fey Ancestry) and humans (Versitile is just their skill bonus but stronger). Almost like they're half of humans, and half of elves.

Avarial and aquatic elves have unique combinations of abilities, but we still consider them under Elf overall. Why should half elf be treated any differently?

Don't worry, all varieties of elves will be reduced to a ribbon, a cantrip, and a 1st and 2nd level spell.

Hmmm... I wonder what spells the half-elf lineage will get?

 

[Maxperson]

Elf (Darkvision and Fey Ancestry) and humans (Versitile is just their skill bonus but stronger). Almost like they're half of humans, and half of elves.

Yep! Half human and half elf, and purely a unique combination of the two. That's indisputable. Unless you can show me another race(singular) with identical racial abilities.

Avarial and aquatic elves have unique combinations of abilities, but we still consider them under Elf overall. Why should half elf be treated any differently?

Those are subraces. And you treat half-elves differently, because....................................................they are not full elves. Only full elves can be an elven subrace.

 

[Mecheon]

Don't worry, all varieties of elves will be reduced to a ribbon, a cantrip, and a 1st and 2nd level spell.

Hmmm... I wonder what spells the half-elf lineage will get?

Let's not drag back to that hot mess of an argument because of how absolutely messy it got when we had the elves who have actual differences to them

Yep! Half human and half elf, and purely a unique combination of the two. That's indisputable. Unless you can show me another race(singular) with identical racial abilities.

Both of those races are in the PHB, so why do we need a combo of them to also be in the PHB? No other PHB race is a combination, why should a unique race be removed and replaced with a combination?

All the other options we have also have unique combinations of stats, that aren't just taking from other options in the PHB. Actually unique ones. Grabbing half of the elf group and half of the human group kind of a bit of a boring option compared to "You can just sense things travelling on the ground, such is your connection to it", "You can talk to animals", "Fire breath" or "You unveil part of your inner form and gain wings", yet you're arguing one of those should be thrown out for half elves to come back. Why is a combination of existing things more worthy of being in the PHB than brand new ones?

Those are subraces. And you treat half-elves differently, because....................................................they are not full elves. Only full elves can be an elven subrace.

Shadar'kai aren't elves (Hell, they were humans last edition) and they got grouped under the Elf banner. Why shouldn't half elves? What's so important to them that we need one of the 10 basic races to specifically be half elves?

One of them has to go to bring half elves back, so what makes them more important than humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, orcs, tieflings, aasimar, goliaths or dragonborn?

 

[Hussar]

Again, @Maxperson, I do not consider a couple of skills which any character, and many backgrounds, can also take, to be unique characteristics of an entire species. There is more to a character sheet than species after all.

But, hey, I know that this isn't going to go anywhere. Fifty pages of "nuh uh, they're totally unique, completely different from all other things" proves that. I mean, a 2014 Half-elf is mechanically expressed with the following:

Darkvision - not unique
Fey Ancestry - not unique
Skill Versatility - 2 skills which may be copied by any class and/or background.
Languages - Common, elvish and one extra - also can be taken by a number of classes and/or backgrounds.

Wow. Being proficient in 2 skills, which means I could be identical to the virtually any other character at the table is the "unique mechanical expression" of an entire species. As I said, @Maxperson, your definition of "unique" is not the one I would use.

 

[Mistwell]

Both of those races are in the PHB, so why do we need a combo of them to also be in the PHB? No other PHB race is a combination, why should a unique race be removed and replaced with a combination?

Because it's consistently, for a long long time now, one of the most popular species in the game among players of the game, and among fans of the novels based on the game, video games based on the game, settings based on the game, iconic characters based on the game, pretty much anything based on the game. That's it. That's the #1 reason to include something in the game: the people who like the game, on average, like that species. That should be a really good, really strong reason to include something in the game.

For an analogy, if you're going to make something based on NBA basketball you should include guys like Lebron and Curry in it. Even if I am not a fan of Lebron and Curry. Even if I think other players like Jokic and Luka have long surpassed Lebron and Curry. Even if I think Lebron and Curry are redundant at this point to better players with similar skill sets, you'd still want to include them. Because fans of the NBA on average would really want them included. And ultimately D&D, like the NBA, is a form of entertainment, and it's not a bad thing for entertainment to cater to the top desires of its average fan.

 

[Mecheon]

Because it's consistently, for a long long time now, one of the most popular species in the game among players of the game, and among fans of the novels based on the game, video games based on the game, settings based on the game, iconic characters based on the game, pretty much anything based on the game. That's it. That's the #1 reason to include something in the game: the people who like the game, on average, like that species. That should be a really good, really strong reason to include something in the game.

And its been a weird look for those past 30 years. Let's not kid ourselves, it has always been a weird look that one of the basic races for the game is "One of your parents is an elf and the other a human, but you're all rare enough its not like a big ol civilisation or anything". Its been a weird look through this game's entire history

I get they're a popular race and am totally cool with them coming in something else, but why should they bloating the PHB with their presence? Every single other race in the game has some sort of unique mechanic to them, some unique "This is you" thing, why should one be added in who's entire mechanic is "Surprise! You don't have one, you're just a blend"

As someone heavily involved in one of those aformentioned video games, I can confirm they're not always popular in all of them. If you can find a single character build for Half Elves in NWN, I'd be shocked as I couldn't find any. And, well, even counting BG3's massive numbers, even the most popular D&D video game is a drop in the bucket compared to the absolute behemoths in the market like WoW or FFXIV, neither of who have half elves as a thing outside of rare circumstances

For an analogy, if you're going to make something based on NBA basketball you should include guys like Lebron and Curry in it. Even if I am not a fan of Lebron and Curry. Even if I think other players like Jokic and Luka have long surpassed Lebron and Curry. Even if I think Lebron and Curry are redundant at this point to better players with similar skill sets, you'd still want to include them. Because fans of the NBA on average would really want them included.

As an Australian I am absolutely clueless on who any of these people are, but I would argue that you wouldn't add Donald Bradman into a modern cricket game about the 20 20, you'd want the relevant players from the current teams. Just because he was one of the greats doesn't mean you parade his corpse around for all eternity, you change things up based on the modern enviroment

 

[Minigiant]

The 2014 elf and human are not the same as the 2024 elf and human. Same for the halfling, dwarf, orc and goliath.

One cannot judge the uniqueness of the half elf or half orc without first speculating of a conversion of the spevies to the 2024 design paradigm of species.

 

[Mistwell]

And its been a weird look for those past 30 years. Let's not kid ourselves, it has always been a weird look that one of the basic races for the game is "One of your parents is an elf and the other a human, but you're all rare enough its not like a big ol civilisation or anything". Its been a weird look through this game's entire history

The overwhelming majority do not state they find this species weird. They actively like it and play it and read about half-elf characters and watch them and play video games with them, etc..

You find it weird. I am not judging you for finding it weird. Most people don't seem to find it weird. That should be highly relevant.

I get they're a popular race and am totally cool with them coming in something else, but why should they bloating the PHB with their presence?

Because people really, really like them on average. That is the reason. It's a good reason. It's a powerful reason. Simply repeating "but why" isn't a response to that really good reason.

Every single other race in the game has some sort of unique mechanic to them, some unique "This is you" thing, why should one be added in who's entire mechanic is "Surprise! You don't have one, you're just a blend"

People like them for the general concept of them, not just the mechanical benefits. Survey after survey says the story elements of the core game are highly relevant to their enjoyment of the game. Optimizers are a minority. People often pick a species because they like the story and look of the species, not the mechanics which are secondary to them.

As someone heavily involved in one of those aformentioned video games, I can confirm they're not always popular in all of them. If you can find a single character build for Half Elves in NWN, I'd be shocked as I couldn't find any. And, well, even counting BG3's massive numbers, even the most popular D&D video game is a drop in the bucket compared to the absolute behemoths in the market like WoW or FFXIV, neither of who have half elves as a thing outside of rare circumstances

Those are not based on D&D, while the 5.24e PHB is?

As an Australian I am absolutely clueless on who any of these people are, but I would argue that you wouldn't add Donald Bradman into a modern cricket game about the 20 20, you'd want the relevant players from the current teams. Just because he was one of the greats doesn't mean you parade his corpse around for all eternity, you change things up based on the modern enviroment

The guys I mentioned are current highly popular players in the game, though objectively no longer the best players in the game due to age. Still, they are wildly popular, still "good" players, personally responsible for a great number of seat sales and jersey sales and such, and iconic players for the game still today. You simply wouldn't want to make something based on the game without them being a part of it, if you wanted it to be popular. Because they are so popular.

 

[pemerton]

"I don't think this narrative should exist" is erasure.

No it's not. Any more than "I wish so-and-so were dead" is murder.