D&D (2024) Not loving weapon mastery with beginners

[Hexmage-EN]

The obvious solution to all these complaints is to properly streamline the system.

Make it so that absolutely nothing can modify or alter the standard basic "attack" move of every character. Things can add to it passively and unconditionally, and no options and no riders.

Then add side abilities that are functionally replacements for the basic attack option, but with riders and other effects.

Any player not advanced enough to use the optional abilities is free to just ignore them, while skilled players can utilise the full repertoire.

Example: Battle master maneuvers right now function as rider abilities on the basic attack, but I propose that they should be considered entirely separate abilities that deal damage independently of the basic attack.

This also works for things like sneak attack. Instead of sneak attack damage being added to particular attacks, sneak attack should be a separate ability that you can use only when you have advantage against that opponent.

The idea is to make each attack action as uncomplicated as possible, so that any decisions are removed from the actual attack action itself. Each decision point instead is shifted to the moment before you attack and which action you will take.

That's pretty much what 4E did. Every character had a basic attack with no riders and then a number of At-Wills. For example, a Fighter had their basic attack that just did the weapon's damage and could choose discrete options like Knockdown Assault to knock prone or Cleave to hit a primary target and do some additional damage to an adjacent enemy.

 

[OptionalRule]

When we play tested the weapon mastery rules in my home campaign, I liked them. They slowed things down slightly, but it was only two players and they knew what they were doing.

My new campaign at school has eight players, half of them brand new, three of whom have weapon mastery. And it is slowing combat down substantially. The things it adds - another decision point, more tactics, more rolls - are flaws not features for someone who is trying to learn a ton of stuff at once. Kinda wishing these had been an optional rule.

This has been my experience too. Add in the 1set level feats and 2024 seems to run significantly slower than 2014, which was already pretty damn slow.

 

[cbwjm]

That might slow things down more.

Why though? If someone has their turn then afterwards says they forgot to use their mastery, DM just has to say it's too late and then continue the next player's turn.

If you think it'll slow down due to arguments about it being unfair or something, well, if you've laid out the rules then they have to live with them. I find players will go along with that if the DM uses the same rule for themselves.

 

[THEMNGMNT]

I have players who I've been gaming with for YEARS who I think are going to struggle with weapon mastery. It's not just a beginner issue. And I say that as someone who digs weapon mastery!

 

[FrogReaver]

Why though? If someone has their turn then afterwards says they forgot to use their mastery, DM just has to say it's too late and then continue the next player's turn.

If you think it'll slow down due to arguments about it being unfair or something, well, if you've laid out the rules then they have to live with them. I find players will go along with that if the DM uses the same rule for themselves.

Because it trains them to spend valuable time thinking through whether they’ve done all on their turn. Now instead of a I’m done, it’s pause and double check to make sure there wasn’t anything you forgot before the ‘I’m done’.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Origin feats.

Built into backgrounds, which you were taking anyway. Negligible complexity add.

 

[Zardnaar]

Built into backgrounds, which you were taking anyway. Negligible complexity add.

Still more complicated though.

Compare B/X to ACKs to 5E.

For us it's no big deal. Pretend you don't know what a d20 is.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Still more complicated though.

Compare B/X to ACKs to 5E.

For us it's no big deal. Pretend you don't know what a d20 is.

At some point you can't simplify any further without harming gameplay, both for veterans and new players once they learn. Steering the game to focus too much on people playing their first game is IMO a mistake. That's what starter sets are for.

 

[Zardnaar]

At some point you can't simplify any further without harming gameplay, both for veterans and new players once they learn. Steering the game to focus too much on people playing their first game is IMO a mistake. That's what starter sets are for.

Well they got a massive influx new players in 5E simplifying the game.

I have my suspicions though it's a new thread. 2024 is aimed more at established players imho at least vs 2014.

 

[J-H]

I have players who I've been gaming with for YEARS who I think are going to struggle with weapon mastery. It's not just a beginner issue. And I say that as someone who digs weapon mastery!

I would as well. The party tempest cleric, who's been playing the same character for 40 sessions (2-3 hours) since level 1, has NEVER used his "deal damage to someone who hit me" ability without being reminded of it. Most of the times he's used his CD to maximize lightning damage, it's been because I (the DM) have asked "Hey, do you want to maximize that?". It took several sessions for him to remember to add the +1d8 thunder damage to his melee attacks. He regularly will roll a dice to hit and say "11" because he rolled an 11, and has to be prompted to add his modifier (PB 4 + 2 str +2 weapon = 8) which he then has to find on his character sheet.

I saw him making a clean copy last night so maybe things will improve a bit.

You play with the players you have, and accept that optimized play with everyone knowing everything their characters can do is something that only happens online. Excessive complexity is definitely a barrier for some people.