D&D (2024) Not loving weapon mastery with beginners

[Will Brandiman]

A lot of the comments on this thread seem to imply that new players are totally unable to comprehend even the simplest of concepts. Why? There's a few people I play with who aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer but we've been using the 2024 rules for all of 2 sessions now and even the guy who counts on his fingers has had no difficulty coping with weapon masteries.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

A lot of the comments on this thread seem to imply that new players are totally unable to comprehend even the simplest of concepts. Why?

Because if you don't think Weapon Mastery is a worthwhile addition to the game (totally reasonable stance to take, I'm on the fence about it), then pretending like it is super complicated and slows down the game is the fashionable thing to do.

It's impossible to know how long combat takes at someone else's table, so it's easy to make up anything you want and no one can disprove it.

 

[Horwath]

Because if you don't think Weapon Mastery is a worthwhile addition to the game (totally reasonable stance to take, I'm on the fence about it), then pretending like it is super complicated and slows down the game is the fashionable thing to do.

It's impossible to know how long combat takes at someone else's table, so it's easy to make up anything you want and no one can disprove it.

I like it to a degree, but it should have been implemented differently.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

I like it to a degree, but it should have been implemented differently.

To be honest the only one I even like is Nick because two-weapon fighting desperately needed a buff, but that could've been handled with the Light property itself

I'd totally buy the argument that the rest are just change for the sake of change and don't really add anything to the game. I just don't buy the argument for a second that attack riders are somehow complicated or slow things down to any meaningful degree.

 

[Horwath]

To be honest the only one I even like is Nick because two-weapon fighting desperately needed a buff, but that could've been handled with the Light property itself

this. TWF should have always been a part of mainhand attack.
I said earlier, Nick is just a lazy hotfix of a problem made 10 years ago.

I'd totally buy the argument that the rest are just change for the sake of change and don't really add anything to the game. I just don't buy the argument for a second that attack riders are somehow complicated or slow things down to any meaningful degree.

it adds some more options and variations of the characters.

But, they all needed to be know "minor" maneuvers that can be applied to certain weapons not tied to single weapons.

I.E: slow can be applied with all attacks.
Vex can be applied to all finesse and ranged weapons
Graze can be applied to all melee 2Handed and Versatile weapons.
Sap can be applied to all melee blunt weapons.
cleave can be applied to all melee slashing weapons.

 

[Zardnaar]

yeah, we played with bonus 1st level feat in every campaign except 1st one in 2014.
It is very simple, but it can be complex-up if you want. but you can break it that way.

but we tried with 3 feats at 1st level in one campaign. Was fun, you can have you character concept done very early and leaves room for more cool feats to be taken as "mandatory" ones are all set at 1st level.

GWM, PAM, SENT at level one as a fighter and then you can take your Skill explert, Skilled, Inspiring leader and others.

Yup if that's what you like fair enough.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's still more complicated than 1d6+3 damage. That's objective. What you like is subjective.

It's not a question of what anyone 'likes', its a question of people pretending new players are too dumb to use them to prop up unnecessary simplicity.

 

[ezo]

A lot of the comments on this thread seem to imply that new players are totally unable to comprehend even the simplest of concepts. Why?

Well, first, it isn't "that new players are totally unable to comprehend even the simplest of concepts."

It is some players (new or old really) have difficulty with remembering to apply all the rules, concepts, features, etc. to the game for their characters. Heck, even when I DM creatures sometimes I forget a feature or something!

IME (anyway) players understand most concepts, but for whatever reason (poor memory, lack of organization, not focused on the game, etc.) those rules or whatever are forgetten in the moment of game play.

Every new rule, feature, mechanic that is added to the game increases its complexity (even if just a bit) and makes things more difficult for some people. For others, they don't have any issue with it. People are different and in the OP's case implementing weapon masteries slows things down. Maybe after a few weeks it will get better, or maybe it won't.

Because if you don't think Weapon Mastery is a worthwhile addition to the game (totally reasonable stance to take, I'm on the fence about it), then pretending like it is super complicated and slows down the game is the fashionable thing to do.

I really don't think that is it at all. When I play tomorrow and Friday I'll talk to my two groups about their thoughts on it. I won't adopt them because I don't like them (but I don't like the rider on cantrips--never have), but that is my personal preference. In the game I play in on Wednesdays, I am not the DM, so if the DM decides to adopt them, I'll go along of course--it is their game to run and their call IMO.

It's not a question of what anyone 'likes', its a question of people pretending new players are too dumb to use them to prop up unnecessary simplicity.

No, it isn't. And if it is, those people are not contributing to the thread in good faith. I would like to think no one here is "pretending" anything about their groups or players--especially insulting remarks like being "too dumb". I know I have (currently) one player who struggles, the rest keep up pretty well.

 

[CreamCloud0]

There should be simple options for new players to get to grips with, this i agree with, there is however, no GOOD reason why the unenviable millstone of an '''honour''' known as simplicity, gets to rest square on the shoulders of the martials and their mechanics time and time again.

 

[ezo]

There should be simple options for new players to get to grips with, this i agree with, there is however, no GOOD reason why the unenviable millstone of an '''honour''' known as simplicity, gets to rest square on the shoulders of the martials and their mechanics time and time again.

Very true. A 1st-level caster will often have 6-8 spell options (including cantrips... many with riders as well), and for new players deciding what to cast and if or not using a valuable spell slot is really necessary can take a lot of time as well.

Any time you have a limit resource (like spell slots, especially early on), you have delay in hedge cases of whether to use it or not.