D&D (2024) Rules that annoy you

[Micah Sweet]

That's D&D in a nutshell though. Look at AC, which is comprised of both "ability to avoid being struck" and "physical protection from harm", which can come from Dexterity, armor, shields, magical effects, racial abilities, class abilities, natural armor, and whatever the heck Monks and Barbarians* are doing to add a secondary ability score to their AC calculations.

Not to mention how my wearing plate armor makes it harder for someone to hit me with a "sustained arc of lightning" (ala Witch Bolt).

*Oh and Draconic Sorcerers.

Or how narratively there's no fundamental difference between say, bashing damage or fire damage in most circumstances.

Or how every spellcasting class shares some spells, despite the origin and method of acquiring and using said spells can be fundamentally different for each class.

I know, you said you don't like this sort of thing, and would probably wish it was otherwise, but not only would you need to rebuild D&D from the ground up to clear up any confusion, these are ingrained "D&D-isms" that many people would miss if they were gone, and claim the game "doesn't feel like D&D".

And we all remember the last time that happened.

All I can tell you is that there are versions of D&D-style games, both official and third party, that lean more toward what I prefer. WotC's version of 5e is not the only way to go.

 

[Pauln6]

It's a mistake to try and put hp or temp hp into neat boxes since they cover multiple concepts that are not mutually exclusive, even for the same damage roll. It's something that applies to many mechanics in D&D. If it makes a difference to the story, you just pick the one that makes the most narrative sense in the moment. I'm not sure why it seems to be a red line for so many.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, that would be the exception, I noted that myself upthread. I used to get into arguments with people who insisted that you're intended to keep players lean and hungry in AD&D, and I'd be like "have you read any of the adventures?".

I don't mind the characters accumulating wealth. With item destruction as possible as it is, 1e is a much more easy come easy go sort of system, and I like it for that.

And of course, I've played a lot of games where my PC's were lean and hungry, lol.

Even with the dungeons stripped to the studs by the time you left?

 

[James Gasik]

I don't mind the characters accumulating wealth. With item destruction as possible as it is, 1e is a much more easy come easy go sort of system, and I like it for that.

Even with the dungeons stripped to the studs by the time you left?

Story time!

I had started playing 4e at my FLGS for public play (first Encounters, later LFR). I was sat at a table with a DM I didn't know. The adventure was loosely based on "Beyond the Crystal Cave", though it really didn't do the module justice- but I digress.

We found ourselves in a villa, and the DM waxed poetically about how opulent the furnishings were, the crystal plates, the gold tableware, the massive oak table.

When we finished the encounter, I asked about treasure. DM: "Oh no, there's no treasure here."

"Uh huh. Ok guys, let's start grabbing all this stuff. We got tapestries, that carpet, the decorative plates..."

DM (horrified): "What are you doing?!"

"Collecting the treasure?"

The man was truly aghast at the idea that I was willing to take some dead Firbolg's furniture. He tried to say it was all just flavor text!

"Listen, if you're saying it's all an illusion and it's worthless, that's cool. But you went on and on about how valuable everything looked, so why can't we take it?"

He'd apparently never encountered starving D&D characters before!

For me, this was SOP, but for him, this was a nightmare made manifest, lol.

It's simply the case that several DM's I've played with over the years have this idea that the instant PC's get wealth, they should retire on a private island somewhere- the point of adventuring is to get rich, so doing so is obviously endgame, so they want you to slaughter 1000 orcs only to end up squabbling over one dented copper coin!

If you do get treasure, you should immediately blow it on ale and whores, Conan-style, so you'll be ready to accept the next adventure, no matter what it might be!

(Some DM's even seem terrified of players gaining any sort of power whatsoever, be it personal or temporal. I obviously don't play with those sorts anymore, but there was a time where it was that or not play, and I wasn't mature enough to realize that no D&D is actually better than bad D&D, lol.)

And boy oh boy, you don't have to tell me about D&D being made to divest you of treasure. I remember I was playing this trilogy of Dragonlance adventures that take place after the first three books. We slowly gained levels and magic items, and then right at the halfway point of the adventure, we ran into a Mordenkainen's Disjunction trap, robbing us of most of our gear- only to earn it all back again by endgame, where I had to kill Tiamat* three times over (with the DM frustrated each time I did it)!

It really didn't make much sense to me, but that's just how the game was back sometimes.

*Technically, it was a daughter of Tiamat who for the purposes of the final battle had the same stat block. We weren't supposed to fight her, she was this impending threat while we were meant to solve a puzzle. I was playing a Fighter (Cavalier Kit) with a high Con and tons of hit points, wielding a +3 footman's Dragonlance, which deals damage equal to my hit points to dragons. And I had two attacks per round. So while everyone was wracking their brains to solve a silly puzzle, I kept hitting and killing the Demigoddess every time she got up (at full hit points)- she couldn't hit me due to my low AC, and I had an item that reduced the damage I took from dragonbreath- it was all very silly.

 

[Willie the Duck]

In 1e you sure can if you're playing through the classic modules and finding even most of the loot.

Even with the dungeons stripped to the studs by the time you left?

1e is not cash-flush if you used the training for level-up rules (to bring up another rule that annoyed). For the hot minute we used that rule, we stripped everything to the studs and were still lean and hungry. Raise dead (we had to pay for) before name level would readily put us in the spot of having gotten enough xp to level, but not afford to train up to the next one (and thus have to adventure without gaining xp for significant periods). Fortunately when we used those rules, the DMs also tended to have temples that would perform resurrections for favors or special tasks (i.e. adventure hooks) instead.

If you do get treasure, you should immediately blow it on ale and whores, Conan-style, so you'll be ready to accept the next adventure, no matter what it might be!

I feel that some variation on this would have worked better as a way to mop up the extra funds than the training rules ever did. You get 1XP per GP hauled out of the dungeon if and only if you spend it on trivialities (group dependent, but can't be secretly game-beneficial, etc.).

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's a mistake to try and put hp or temp hp into neat boxes since they cover multiple concepts that are not mutually exclusive, even for the same damage roll. It's something that applies to many mechanics in D&D. If it makes a difference to the story, you just pick the one that makes the most narrative sense in the moment. I'm not sure why it seems to be a red line for so many.

It's a preference. Calling it a "redline" is unhelpful hyperbole.

 

[CreamCloud0]

It's a preference. Calling it a "redline" is unhelpful hyperbole.

they have a point though, trying to hard establish if HP are meat or luck or endurance or whatever else is a pretty pointless endeavour IMO, nothing is achieved or changes about the game mechanics if you do find out, and honestly it would probably end up causing some weird rules interactions down the line if you do establish that everything is meat or not.

just imagine it how you want to imagine it in your own head, why do people need a proclomation declaring it to be X or Y for certain for evermore, there are no benefits from doing that.

 

[Pauln6]

It's a preference. Calling it a "redline" is unhelpful hyperbole.

That's true. Although, admittedly some people do seem to hate the concept of inspirational healing with more passion thank some Tolkien fans hate Rings of Power.

I suppose not everyone agrees on every concept either. Inspirational healing has real world scientific parallels such as adrenalin boosts, the placebo effect, and performance enhancement from positive vibes from your home crowd. Admittedly, I remain unconvinced that Hulk used inspiring word on Thor, more likely DM fiat of a medicine check, but the principle remains similar.

The maths can be annoying to keep track of between sessions but I don't mind the conceptual use of inspirational healing and temp hit points as partially meat and partially will power without the need to be specific. High level hit points don't really make any sense if they're just meat. You would need Level 0 hit points for your meat and then your level-based training/luck hp in a different pool. Inspirational healing would then be way better than clerical healing, since your actual hp would only be about 10hp. Save or die poison damage would be back on the menu!

I suppose that is straightforward enough to implement though. You could do meat HP based on size plus your strength and con bonuses (so a range of 4 to 18). Every hit does 1 meat damage per die rolled or on a crit 1 meat damage +1 per die rolled. D&D would be much more lethal though and you would need more reactions to avoid meat damage even if your skill/luck hp went down, like parrying, rogue uncanny dodge, shield or stoneskin spells etc.

 

[Micah Sweet]

they have a point though, trying to hard establish if HP are meat or luck or endurance or whatever else is a pretty pointless endeavour IMO, nothing is achieved or changes about the game mechanics if you do find out, and honestly it would probably end up causing some weird rules interactions down the line if you do establish that everything is meat or not.

just imagine it how you want to imagine it in your own head, why do people need a proclomation declaring it to be X or Y for certain for evermore, there are no benefits from doing that.

I don't need a proclamation from WotC or anyone else. I find a system that most closely aligns to what I want, and make adjustments.

The language being used here is very binary. It's not conducive to discussion to characterize one's rhetorical opponents as overly dogmatic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's true. Although, admittedly some people do seem to hate the concept of inspirational healing with more passion thank some Tolkien fans hate Rings of Power.

I suppose not everyone agrees on every concept either. Inspirational healing has real world scientific parallels such as adrenalin boosts, the placebo effect, and performance enhancement from positive vibes from your home crowd. Admittedly, I remain unconvinced that Hulk used inspiring word on Thor, more likely DM fiat of a medicine check, but the principle remains similar.

The maths can be annoying to keep track of between sessions but I don't mind the conceptual use of inspirational healing and temp hit points as partially meat and partially will power without the need to be specific. High level hit points don't really make any sense if they're just meat. You would need Level 0 hit points for your meat and then your level-based training/luck hp in a different pool. Inspirational healing would then be way better than clerical healing, since your actual hp would only be about 10hp. Save or die poison damage would be back on the menu!

I suppose that is straightforward enough to implement though. You could do meat HP based on size plus your strength and con bonuses (so a range of 4 to 18). Every hit does 1 meat damage per die rolled or on a crit 1 meat damage +1 per die rolled. D&D would be much more lethal though and you would need more reactions to avoid meat damage even if your skill/luck hp went down, like parrying, rogue uncanny dodge, shield or stoneskin spells etc.

Hit points are always a combination of meat and less tangible qualities, and the latter grows proportionally as level goes up. But the meat is always there, because there are situations where it has to be. My preference has been explained before, but basically I like that, outside of those situations where it has to be meat, the only hit that truly does real damage is the last one that brings you down. My concern has always been more about what happens then over anything before that.

It's a discussion. It shouldn't be scripture no matter what preference you have.