D&D (2024) Scoring abilities of 2024 Species (and looking back to MotM)

[fluffybunbunkittens]

The only one I disagree with is Dragonborn. I think you are overvaluing breath weapon. It can be really good but you need to have a high Constitution to make it work. This is worse than the spells of the spell species because they allow you to choose one of three abilities.

I think Dragonborn breath does have unique value in that it gives warriors an AoE, which they otherwise have none of. Even if it's low damage and low DC, but it's still always hitting for at least half damage, to maybe finish near-dead people off...

Ah wait, you'd have to know that someone is at low hitpoints to aim to finish them off with something that might do only 5 damage at lv5. I just run on VTT with health bars visible, so I can avoid questions about how hurt someone looks, so obviously this'd be better in that environment.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Can you elaborate on this a bit? I see the value of Hill Giant and Cloud Giant options, but I've not seen any 2024 Goliaths in play. I don't see anything that's build-defining, though.

"Build-defining" could be a stretch depending on what that term means to you, but there are so many options to choose that are really good, so it's pretty easy to find one that at least really helps round out your build:

• Cloud is probably the best to build around. Multiple Misty Steps per day which don't require spellcasting ability and also don't prevent casting another leveled spell as your action. Great ability offensively and defensively for any build that lacks mobility
• Fire and Frost are the only 2024 species features (along with Halfling Luck) that straight up add damage without giving up any action economy. I might be overrating them for this reason, but if you are building for maximum damage, it's easy to argue that Fire's Burn is the best species feature in 2024. Frost has the upside of stacking with other slows like weapon mastery - so it's free damage plus you can set up builds that lock down an enemy.
• Hill is amazing on a melee build that struggles to guarantee advantage on attacks. So oftentimes it's not that great but it has that particular niche where I'd call it build-defining
• Stone isn't new but it's always been one of the best species features for tank builds
• Storm is bad, no one's going to take this

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

On Goliaths, I don't personally really like Cloud (they already have movement speed + Str advantage from Embiggening to make Athletics rolls with) or Hill (that's what weapon masteries are for, especially when it's still limited to Large enemies), but they are both powerful because you can just say that this happened.

But yeah, Fire is simple but fine, because you can pile on damage when it's needed (imagine an alpha-striking BM Fighter doing +1d10 damage on every hit too, or you can crit-fish for +2d10 oomph), or if you want to tank, that Stone damage reduction is going to do a lot more than dwarf +1hp/level is ever going to.

I think the important thing is choice. Except for Storm, I don't know what that's doing there.

 

[Ashrym]

I think the origin feat is quite difficult to get, if you play the backgrounds as written.

This is also "as written":

Backgrounds and Species from Older Books

Backgrounds in older D&D books don’t include ability score adjustments. If you’re using a background from an older book, adjust your ability scores by increasing one score by 2 and a different one by 1, or increase three scores by 1. None of these increases can raise a score above 20.

Similarly, species in older books include ability score increases. If you’re using a species from an older book, ignore those increases and use only the ones given by your background.

Also, if the background you choose doesn’t provide a feat, you gain an Origin feat of your choice.

Players still have the option for backgrounds from older books or custom backgrounds. Either gives an origin feat of choice.

It takes a rather ornery DM to nitpick the background to deny those options, IMO, but I suppose "DM is ornery" is a possibility. ;-)

Unless you are human, the only way to get True Strike from an origin feat is if you choose the Sage background (or, as you say forego the ASI options at level 4). Taking that background means that you can't take a +2 to Str, Dex, or Charisma -- which are the primary stats for Barb, Bard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, or Warlock. Now for some of those classes (that get Extra attack) this would likely not be the build in any case, but I do think the background is written consciously to make it difficult to get Magic Initiate (Wizard) as an origin feat. (You're also saddled with Arcana and History as skills, which is terrible if (as often) characters dump Int).

With the "old background" rule the PC can take those ability scores, but we were specifically talking about the rogue using Truestrike so barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, sorcerers, warlock, and wizards aren't relevant to that point.

The Sage background gives a choice of CON, INT, or WIS bonuses. Here is Truestrike:

Guided by a flash of magical insight, you make one attack with the weapon used in the spell’s casting. The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity. If the attack deals damage, it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice).

I bolded and underlined the important part here. The build that uses Truestrike is forced to use the spellcasting ability that was selected. This build is going to use INT or WIS to attack with Truestrike and can take CON for the hit points. Rogues can use this.

RAW, Magic Initiate (Wizard) is hard to access (and that's part of why I rate the Human extra feat as high as I do).

It's not hard to access. Anyone can take the background and I expect that most DM's will allow the updates for old backgrounds or a custom background. It's more of a system mastery issue specific to the Sage background. I agree that it's harder to apply outside of the rogue specific example, but that also assumes a level of optimization that might not exist. IE not optimized is not the same thing as not accessible.

 

[StitchedSpartan]

This is also "as written":



Players still have the option for backgrounds from older books or custom backgrounds. Either gives an origin feat of choice.

It takes a rather ornery DM to nitpick the background to deny those options, IMO, but I suppose "DM is ornery" is a possibility. ;-)



With the "old background" rule the PC can take those ability scores, but we were specifically talking about the rogue using Truestrike so barbarians, bards, clerics, druids, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, sorcerers, warlock, and wizards aren't relevant to that point.

The Sage background gives a choice of CON, INT, or WIS bonuses. Here is Truestrike:



I bolded and underlined the important part here. The build that uses Truestrike is forced to use the spellcasting ability that was selected. This build is going to use INT or WIS to attack with Truestrike and can take CON for the hit points. Rogues can use this.



It's not hard to access. Anyone can take the background and I expect that most DM's will allow the updates for old backgrounds or a custom background. It's more of a system mastery issue specific to the Sage background. I agree that it's harder to apply outside of the rogue specific example, but that also assumes a level of optimization that might not exist. IE not optimized is not the same thing as not accessible.

Rogues generally still prefer to have higher DEX than CON for AC and stealth checks, especially if they are already splitting it with INT/WIS as their main attacking stat

However you can also get True Strike from High Elf

 

[Ashrym]

Getting Truestrike from a High Elf for a rogue is how this discussion got started. I am aware.

But gaining Truestrike from a High Elf doesn't change the ability score it uses either, which is where picking it up from the Sage background is an advantage in boosting that casting stat and the rogue could be a Dwarf instead for Dwarven Toughness et al, for example. Or just go human and take the origin feat et al, and take whatever background the player wants. Or just take any other species and still have the spell sought after.

My point was that it's easy to get the Magic Initiate feat because it's readily available in a background. Or the spell is available via a couple of species. Or any PC can spend a regular feat for it. Or a warlock can spend an invocation for it. Or the spell is available on scroll for gp on the equipment list. Or the spell is available on several class lists including the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight subclasses.

I don't see much value in the species option given the number of other options available for that one particular cantrip. That argument looks less appealing when it's lowering the to hit ratio by focusing on DEX instead of the ability score associated with using the cantrip.

A rogue might prefer DEX to CON for skills but a rogue can use INT or WIS for skills too. They are just a different set of skills.

 

[StitchedSpartan]

Getting Truestrike from a High Elf for a rogue is how this discussion got started. I am aware.

But gaining Truestrike from a High Elf doesn't change the ability score it uses either, which is where picking it up from the Sage background is an advantage in boosting that casting stat and the rogue could be a Dwarf instead for Dwarven Toughness et al, for example. Or just go human and take the origin feat et al, and take whatever background the player wants. Or just take any other species and still have the spell sought after.

My point was that it's easy to get the Magic Initiate feat because it's readily available in a background. Or the spell is available via a couple of species. Or any PC can spend a regular feat for it. Or a warlock can spend an invocation for it. Or the spell is available on scroll for gp on the equipment list. Or the spell is available on several class lists including the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight subclasses.

I don't see much value in the species option given the number of other options available for that one particular cantrip. That argument looks less appealing when it's lowering the to hit ratio by focusing on DEX instead of the ability score associated with using the cantrip.

A rogue might prefer DEX to CON for skills but a rogue can use INT or WIS for skills too. They are just a different set of skills.

Just adding that Elves can choose their spell casting stat so it is still a decently versatile option

• 
  Elven Lineage: Choose a lineage from the Elven Lineages table below. You gain the level 1 benefit of that lineage and when you reach character levels 3 and 5, you learn a higher-level spell, as shown on the table. You always have that spell prepared. You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level. Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for the spells you cast with this trait (you choose the ability when you first select your lineage at Level 1).

The main reason Dexterity is important for rogues is AC which they will struggle with at higher levels if they neglect it unless they find another way to have different armor

 

[Ashrym]

Just adding that Elves can choose their spell casting stat so it is still a decently versatile option

It's a versatile option to select 1 cantrip from the wizard list daily. Being used as a cantrip that misses more than dual wielding with a Nick weapon off hand and using DEX for attack damage rolls isn't more versatile than taking a background that uses a different ability score such as WIS for both skills and attack / damage when it's just a different set of important skills.

The main reason Dexterity is important for rogues is AC which they will struggle with at higher levels if they neglect it unless they find another way to have different armor

So why is this rogue looking for Truestrike in the first place if it's going to force them into a position where they either give up on accuracy or AC? And if they're giving up on one or the other regardless then how does this become more versatile? And why would we be adding value to a species ability that forces the rogue into giving up on either AC or accuracy when they could just use DEX to still cover both without the cantrip?

 

[StitchedSpartan]

It's a versatile option to select 1 cantrip from the wizard list daily. Being used as a cantrip that misses more than dual wielding with a Nick weapon off hand and using DEX for attack damage rolls isn't more versatile than taking a background that uses a different ability score such as WIS for both skills and attack / damage when it's just a different set of important skills.



So why is this rogue looking for Truestrike in the first place if it's going to force them into a position where they either give up on accuracy or AC? And if they're giving up on one or the other regardless then how does this become more versatile? And why would we be adding value to a species ability that forces the rogue into giving up on either AC or accuracy when they could just use DEX to still cover both without the cantrip?

Rogues don’t have many options for extra damage, True Strike adds additional d6 as you level up, and accuracy for True Strike builds are the same as ranged builds if you spec into them while sacrificing some AC in exchange for damage

Melee build is better with only Dex

 

[Ashrym]

Rogues don’t have many options for extra damage, True Strike adds additional d6 as you level up, and accuracy for True Strike builds are the same as ranged builds if you spec into them while sacrificing some AC in exchange for damage

An extra d6 doesn't make up for the damage lost to accuracy, and you just told me that rogues will struggle due to lower AC but now you're telling me they sacrifice some AC for this build anyway?

The difference in AC is 2 or 3 points with the Sage option. That's easily manageable with the Moderately Armored feat and we have a rogue that favors perception more than stealth as opposed to favoring stealth more than perception but still excellent in both because of expertise.

I'm curious what this build is that warrants Truestrike and DEX instead of a the casting stat to use Truestrike..