D&D (2024) Rogues can now Sneak Attack with all thrown weapons - Tridents, Spears, Handaxes, they all work!

[ECMO3]

[referring to reach weapons]

I am fascinated. So you think that the definition of a Range(d) Weapon is

• a weapon used to attack at a greater distance than 5ft (p.213)

AND

• a weapon with a range in parentheses after the Ammunition or Thrown property (p.214)

Yes because this is what the rules say. So if I am talking about what the rules are in 2024 I am actually going to use the wording of the rules for that.

REGARDLESS OF

• whether it's listed under the Ranged or Melee sections of the Weapons table

I did not say regardless of that, but that is just a list of weapons. If there was a discrepancy this would matter but there isn't. For example if a Greatsword was listed under simple Ranged Weapons and it did not have the ammunition property, the Thrown property or a range in parentheses then we would have a real problem. We would have a weapon that is not a Ranged Weapon according to the rules that is called out as a Ranged Weapon on the table.

We don't have this though. Just because a Dagger is a Thrown Weapon does not mean it can't be a Ranged Weapon when thrown and in fact is a ranged weapon when thrown according to BOTH rules.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah. Probably it is better to read it with exception based design in mind:

Melee weaponsa are used at 5ft. Ranged weapons are used at longer ranged (if nothing else states something different).

Properties of weapons are exceptions to the general rule.

Other interpretations have the logic reversed.

And the PHB right in the beginning tells use that exception based design is used.

D&D has been an exceptions based system since at least 1e and probably Basic.

 

[Mistwell]

Because it makes no sense in the fiction. I don't accept meta rationalization like that. If a rogue can use one big and unwieldy weapon to sneak attack with, they should be able to use all of them.

Piercing is the most common sneak attack weapon. Trident, being a pretty iconic piercing weapon, fits much better than a greatsword or glaive for backstabbing someone. So does a spear, or javelin, or dart. All these weapons, to me, make lots of sense for sneak attacks.

 

[Mistwell]

For those on the "a weapon must be a melee or a ranged weapon, but cannot be both" please explain the Hoopak.

 

[Maxperson]

Piercing is the most common sneak attack weapon. Trident, being a pretty iconic piercing weapon, fits much better than a greatsword or glaive for backstabbing someone. So does a spear, or javelin, or dart. All these weapons, to me, make lots of sense for sneak attacks.

There are slashing sneak attack weapons. The trident is large and unwieldy. Just because it pierces doesn't make it more likely in the fiction to get a sneak attack than a large and unwieldy slashing weapon.

 

[Maxperson]

For those on the "a weapon must be a melee or a ranged weapon, but cannot be both" please explain the Hoopak.

D&D is an exceptions based system. That thing is an exception designed to be both a staff and sling. The sling portion would be a ranged weapon as per the PHB listing under ranged weapons.

 

[Mistwell]

There are slashing sneak attack weapons. The trident is large and unwieldy. Just because it pierces doesn't make it more likely in the fiction to get a sneak attack than a large and unwieldy slashing weapon.

It does for me? It's why I said we have no idea what Rules As Intended mean here because we have diametrically opposed views of what the fiction should be here, and don't have designer intent to go on.

 

[Mistwell]

D&D is an exceptions based system. That thing is an exception designed to be both a staff and sling. The sling portion would be a ranged weapon as per the PHB listing under ranged weapons.

So a weapon can be both a melee and ranged weapon.

 

[ECMO3]

Nope. Backwards logic.

Yeah because when they said in Sage Advice they would specifically connect it to the thrown property if they wanted Thrown Weapons to be Ranged Weapons that is not what they meant. They were just kidding!

 

[ECMO3]

D&D is an exceptions based system. That thing is an exception designed to be both a staff and sling. The sling portion would be a ranged weapon as per the PHB listing under ranged weapons.

No according to Dragonlance SODQ A Hoopak is a "martial melee weapon"

Under the 2024 rules it would be both, just like Thrown weapons and I will note the exception-basis for considering Hoopaks as both applies to Thrown weapons as well.