D&D (2024) Rogues can now Sneak Attack with all thrown weapons - Tridents, Spears, Handaxes, they all work!

[roguish]

Just because a Dagger is a Thrown Weapon does not mean it can't be a Ranged Weapon when thrown and in fact is a ranged weapon when thrown according to BOTH rules.

Our disagreement is that I take the "Melee Weapons" section of the table to mean Melee weapons, as it says, and therefore not Ranged. Though if they have the Thrown property they can have a range, measured in feet, and they can be used for either melee or ranged attacks, wielder's choice. But they don't change classification depending on how they're used. The ATTACK changes depending on how the weapon is used.

Here, look at the definition of Thrown:

If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack. If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon.

(bold mine) And this is how you use a Melee weapon to make a ranged attack. The weapon doesn't change. It's still Melee. The attack changes.

And it doesn't make sense to change the weapon's designation from Melee to Ranged depending on its use, because for example Barbarians get weapon mastery in Melee weapons only. Are they gonna lose their spear weapon mastery every time they throw the spear? That seems unintuitive and borked.

There are plenty of rules that restrict people to melee weapons (e.g. monk weapons, Dual Wielder, Duelist), and it would be a HUGE deal if that precluded throwing them (assuming it's a weapon that can be thrown). It does not. If you can't throw a weapon with a given ability, it will specify "melee attack" (e.g. Berserker's Retaliation, Wild Heart's Ram, a bunch of Battle Master maneuvers etc).

And you'll see that most of the time (not all the time; some restrictions are IMO arbitrary) the difference makes sense: a swashbuckling Dual Wielder can stab you with a rapier and chuck a dagger at your buddy 20 ft away, but a Barbarian who can Ram you and knock you down needs to do it at close quarters, like a ram.

...And you haven't answered my burning questions. (If you have and I missed it, my apologies, it got a bit unwieldy following this thread.)

1. By your reasoning, do you apply Sharpshooter to a lance that has reach?
2. When you throw a thrown weapon or fire a weapon with ammunition at a target within 5 ft, does it transform to a melee weapon, and use melee weapon/attack rules?

For those on the "a weapon must be a melee or a ranged weapon, but cannot be both" please explain the Hoopak.

I feel that the weird wording of a single weapon (and a notoriously weird one) in all of 5th Edition should not invalidate a reading of general rules that makes sense in ALL other cases. Especially since the weird wording is under the "Special" entry. I think it's reasonable to assume that anything designated "Special" is only applicable to this one thing, and should NOT be used to extrapolate anything about the rules as a whole. It's an exception by definition.

That said, the wording is needlessly weird. The hoopak is listed as a martial melee weapon which can be used "as a martial ranged weapon". Why not say "which can be used to make ranged attacks with ammunition (sling bullets)"? Like all other melee weapons that can do that, except they're normally Thrown and not Ammunition? No reason, really.

 

[Mistwell]

I feel that the weird wording of a single weapon (and a notoriously weird one) in all of 5th Edition should not invalidate a reading of general rules that makes sense in ALL other cases.

Unless it doesn't make sense for all other cases. Maye it was the test case for the new rule.

 

[Charlaquin]

Take that bit you copied above go into to DND Beyond and click on "Ranged" 46 words into the description of Sneak attack

Sure the weapon table lists Ranged and melee weapons and some of the melee weapons are also ranged weapons as linked in the description of Sneak Attack and the text where it says what a "Range Weapon" is.

I am surprised that that people seem to click to an old interpretation that is clearly and unequivocally changed in the new rules.

The rules unambiguously state that a weapon can be either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon, so any interpretation that allows a weapon to be both is contradicted within the text.

 

[Maxperson]

So a weapon can be both a melee and ranged weapon.

If designed that way. If you want a handaxe to be a ranged weapon, make it bend, attach a string to it, and fire some arrows from it.

 

[Maxperson]

It does for me? It's why I said we have no idea what Rules As Intended mean here because we have diametrically opposed views of what the fiction should be here, and don't have designer intent to go on.

Yeah. And I'm sure our views color our perception of how likely it will be.

 

[Maxperson]

No according to Dragonlance SODQ A Hoopak is a "martial melee weapon"

I don't really care what the Dragonlance book lists it as. It's clearly, from the books which happened prior to what you are quoting, designed to be both a staff AND a sling, not just a staff.

The hoopak has two different primary methods of attack, depending on whether you use the staff OR use the sling. It's essentially designed such that you are always holding two different weapons. A handaxe only has one primary method of attack. Melee. That you can throw it doesn't change that primary method of attack.

 

[Maxperson]

The rules unambiguously state that a weapon can be either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon, so any interpretation that allows a weapon to be both is contradicted within the text.

Or in the case of the hoopak, specific beats general.

 

[OptionalRule]

How about with playing cards and paper-clips?

 

[Vaalingrade]

There are slashing sneak attack weapons. The trident is large and unwieldy. Just because it pierces doesn't make it more likely in the fiction to get a sneak attack than a large and unwieldy slashing weapon.

The kind of trident you throw is a fishing spear.

So it's a ranger weapon you throw against the light refraction of water to hit a relatively small fish. They're neither large nor unwieldy; they just exist in the same space where the dagger is literally every knife and the trident is literally every tri-tipped spear.

 

[Maxperson]

The kind of trident you throw is a fishing spear.

In D&D it's a melee trident. If there were a special fishing spear trident that was lighter and sleeker, perhaps doing a bit less damage, and listed as a ranged weapon, I'd have no issue with it.