D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Zardnaar]

Getting 2d8 at level 1 while Paladins and Fighters were getting 1d10 is certainly tankier. But what class fantasy was "Good character with more hit points early game than Fighter/Paladin and Druid Spells later on" trying to evoke, exactly?

Especially with the bonus to fighting "Giant Kin" I feel like "Dwarf" was the closest to an actual class fantasy as existed for early Ranger...

Early ranger was Aragon.

 

[Steampunkette]

Early ranger was Aragon.

Ah, yes. When he cast those spells on the Witch King of Angmar I was enthralled.

Even in a setting where the biggest spell we see Gandalf cast is "Break Bridge" the most magical thing Aragorn does is make a poultice with some weeds to keep Frodo alive 'til they can get him to Elrond. Nothing about him says:

1) Extra HP compared to Boromir, Gimli, or Legolas
2) Druid Spells
3) Giant-Hatred (I'll give you orcs, maybe goblins... but Kobolds? Gnolls?)
4) MAGIC USER SPELLS AT 9th LEVEL

And poultice as Druid Spells would suggest he was either 8th level at Hilltop, or hit 8th level there. By 10th level he'd be -great- at using the Palantir, though, since it allows for clairaudience/clarivoyance/ESP/Telepathy stuff which Aragorn apparently gets proficiency in...

And who can forget the scene where Aragorn cast Magic Missile at the darkness?

 

[Zardnaar]

Ah, yes. When he cast those spells on the Witch King of Angmar I was enthralled.

Even in a setting where the biggest spell we see Gandalf cast is "Break Bridge" the most magical thing Aragorn does is make a poultice with some weeds to keep Frodo alive 'til they can get him to Elrond. Nothing about him says:

1) Extra HP compared to Boromir, Gimli, or Legolas
2) Druid Spells
3) Giant-Hatred (I'll give you orcs, maybe goblins... but Kobolds? Gnolls?)
4) MAGIC USER SPELLS AT 9th LEVEL

And poultice as Druid Spells would suggest he was either 8th level at Hilltop, or hit 8th level there. By 10th level he'd be -great- at using the Palantir, though, since it allows for clairaudience/clarivoyance/ESP/Telepathy stuff which Aragorn apparently gets proficiency in...

And who can forget the scene where Aragorn cast Magic Missile at the darkness?

Not everything made it in but you just listed a ot of it.

Druid spells I think was the &D equivalent of that poultice.

Inspiration is clear not saying it's exact. And Gandalf might be level 5 or 6, Aragon maybe 4. Balrog has 8+8 HD after all.

It's D&D not MERP. Early ranger is obvious.

D&D has always been poor at Middle Earth/GoT.

 

[tetrasodium]

I mean I'd argue it is a balance change, as you're adding either a minimal resource drain or a "Woops you didn't buy a torch guess you've got to turn around now and go get one". Its not making the dark threatening again, its making the dark annoying again.

Mind, having both seen Skyrim players have a dislike to all the "Make the dungeons dark so you have to use torches" mods after the fact, and played a lot of Ark Aberration (the cave map) where colour balance is a god-damn nightmare during the dark moments. The dark ain't a threat in Aberration, but the radiation, giant murder-snakes and the hellspawn (who stay away if you got a little light pet on your shoulder) are

Effective use of light & dark in a video game takes more than slapping a mod on it. You might have more experience with skyrim than I do, but I don't recall even once being able to say "Hey GM, can I try to...." & then describe some completely made up interaction with the world in what little I've played. Video games are a poor comparison for things like the value of light & dark in TTRPGs unless you want to start talking about playing TTRPGs like a video game.

Don't forget that when you start expecting TTRPGs to start being played like a video game you also add the expectation for the meat computer behind the GM screen to start designing & testing adventures like video games

Spoiler

Next session will be in a few years & it's going to cost a few tens of millions for the GM team to build/test it. Don't forget where we left off

Gritty realism absolutely impacts them? It slows down everything by its nature. If they're not expecting that slower pace and came in for the default chips and nachos 5E experience, why wouldn't they complain?

No not really. It literally has no effect on the players once they decide that taking a rest is more important than avoiding whatever consequence the GM might be dangling. At that point it plays out like this:

Spoiler: I'm partial to the bit where the GM begs his players

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean I'd argue it is a balance change, as you're adding either a minimal resource drain or a "Woops you didn't buy a torch guess you've got to turn around now and go get one". Its not making the dark threatening again, its making the dark annoying again.

Mind, having both seen Skyrim players have a dislike to all the "Make the dungeons dark so you have to use torches" mods after the fact, and played a lot of Ark Aberration (the cave map) where colour balance is a god-damn nightmare during the dark moments. The dark ain't a threat in Aberration, but the radiation, giant murder-snakes and the hellspawn (who stay away if you got a little light pet on your shoulder) are

Gritty realism absolutely impacts them? It slows down everything by its nature. If they're not expecting that slower pace and came in for the default chips and nachos 5E experience, why wouldn't they complain?

I've always wondered about that. As far as I know, none of the books actually call out D&D as a casual, "chips and nachos" experience by default. Where does that idea come from?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Further, they pretend that this is totally optional, and that you can substitute almost any amount of non-combat encounters in for those combat ones. But then when you actually dig into the math and look at how the game was designed...they legitimately did presume an absolute floor of 5-6 specifically combat encounters in order for LR classes to keep up with SR/non-rest classes.

That's part of why 5.5e buffed Warlocks and Fighters and added in all those mastery properties etc., and why their initial attempt to fix the Warlock's problems was simply to delete everything that made the Warlock unique and SR-based.


Which, frankly, is how much of 5e is done--and part of why the 5.0 DMG is really just...double plus ungood. I have often phrased this as throwing the DM to the wolves, or into the deep end of the pool.

I'm very curious if and to what extent they've kept the DM-eating wolves at bay in the 5.5 DMG.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If I want to play a gambling-type game, I can play backgammon. If my friend wants to play a highly intellectual-type game, they can play chess. But it's going to be pretty hard for the two of us to play the same game at the same time and have it be both a gambling-type game and an intellectual-type game.

RPGs are no different from any other game in this respect. If the participants are looking for different sorts of gaming experiences, then they are not going to be very satisfied playing together!

Poker is rather famously both things.

 

[ECMO3]

Ah, yes. When he cast those spells on the Witch King of Angmar I was enthralled.

Even in a setting where the biggest spell we see Gandalf cast is "Break Bridge" the most magical thing Aragorn does is make a poultice with some weeds to keep Frodo alive 'til they can get him to Elrond. Nothing about him says:

1) Extra HP compared to Boromir, Gimli, or Legolas
2) Druid Spells
3) Giant-Hatred (I'll give you orcs, maybe goblins... but Kobolds? Gnolls?)
4) MAGIC USER SPELLS AT 9th LEVEL

And poultice as Druid Spells would suggest he was either 8th level at Hilltop, or hit 8th level there. By 10th level he'd be -great- at using the Palantir, though, since it allows for clairaudience/clarivoyance/ESP/Telepathy stuff which Aragorn apparently gets proficiency in...

And who can forget the scene where Aragorn cast Magic Missile at the darkness?

I would say Aragorn does a lot with magic in the book. In addition to the curing, you have what happened on the Throne in the Wilderness and what happened with the legion of the dead.

Alegedly this all had to do with him being part Elf, not due to being a Ranger.

I do agree though that the 1E Ranger is not a copy of Aragorn and if Aragorn was the inspiration then it is a poor implementation.

I actually think Vikings and Barbarians are more the inspiration for the 1E Ranger:
Outdoors survivalist - check
More rugged/extra hit dice - check
Shaman magic - check

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ah, yes. When he cast those spells on the Witch King of Angmar I was enthralled.

Even in a setting where the biggest spell we see Gandalf cast is "Break Bridge" the most magical thing Aragorn does is make a poultice with some weeds to keep Frodo alive 'til they can get him to Elrond. Nothing about him says:

1) Extra HP compared to Boromir, Gimli, or Legolas
2) Druid Spells
3) Giant-Hatred (I'll give you orcs, maybe goblins... but Kobolds? Gnolls?)
4) MAGIC USER SPELLS AT 9th LEVEL

And poultice as Druid Spells would suggest he was either 8th level at Hilltop, or hit 8th level there. By 10th level he'd be -great- at using the Palantir, though, since it allows for clairaudience/clarivoyance/ESP/Telepathy stuff which Aragorn apparently gets proficiency in...

And who can forget the scene where Aragorn cast Magic Missile at the darkness?

One of the best things about the Level Up ranger is that the class is not by default a spellcaster. Add in LU's marshal, and thus the "no-spell" class count in the core book to six (adept, berserker, fighter, marshal, ranger, rogue). Four of those don't even have a supernatural default!

 

[I'm A Banana]

Do people want balance?

IDK, wtf is "balance," define your terms. It means different things to different people.

I think rigid mathematical combat balance isn't really for everyone, for instance. 4e maybe got the closest to this, and I think this contributed directly to the feeling of grind and sameness and combats being a "sport". But it's the same reason some people adore the system. I also think 3e's rocket tag and CoDzillas showed that balance for the system overall is something that if not attended to, will hurt the experience, too. Balance also isn't something necessarily thrown off by short rest recharges, bonus action smites, or sneak attacks from OA's.

So once we've got a clear definition of what we're talking about, we can better judge if it's something folks really want or not.