D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Micah Sweet]

Then you shouldn't expect the designers of 5E games to design to your expectations, not their own. And they certain are not going to waste their time trying to make you happy, when you don't even want to play their game in the first place.

It does make me wonder though why you've tied your identity so much to a silly little game that every single thing done to it that stomps on your childhood desires is taken so to heart? Isn't it time for your life to move on?

That is a very personal thing to say. You don't know me. My connection to D&D is tied to a very close friend who was like a brother to me for 25 years. His passing away a few years ago hurt me deeply, and I have a very hard time feeling as much joy as I used to engaging in activities, like playing D&D, that were important to us. I very rarely view movies in the theater for the same reason.

But before I met him I engaged in D&D by reading the books and exploring the worlds of the game, and I can still enjoy that. Every time they change what I used to love about it reminds me of what I lost. I have lots of other good things in my life now, and I'm generally a pretty happy guy, but it still hurts, and gaming is just too big a part of my life and identity to give up.

 

[Oofta]

Is it so bad to hope and want for the designers to provide variant rules for different levels of challenge? Different encounter building guidelines for different types of players? Additional combat rule variants for each of those? This isn’t an earth shattering request, and it’s what NEXT sounds like it was promising. The game is modular, ish, WotC just didn’t provide those modular rules.

We'll find out what the new DMG has in a couple of weeks. In the meantime they have alternate rules and fully support 3PP. It's not the "most modular ever" pipe dream that was mentioned in one interview with Mearls, but it's not like there aren't still plenty of options out there.

 

[ezo]

So being popular is a direct reflection of how well they designed the game.

Not really. It is popular because of branding and influencers with younger players. It is popular because the onus which once hung on the heads of those playing it is long gone. There are a lot of people out there who like other versions of D&D more or who just outright prefer non-D&D RPGs.

Much of the design is based on the design precedence set by prior editions--for better or worse.

Is it so bad to hope and want for the designers to provide variant rules for different levels of challenge? Different encounter building guidelines for different types of players? Additional combat rule variants for each of those? This isn’t an earth shattering request, and it’s what NEXT sounds like it was promising. The game is modular, ish, WotC just didn’t provide those modular rules.

No, it isn't bad, and they could have done it, but chose not to.

 

[Xenolith234]

We'll find out what the new DMG has in a couple of weeks. In the meantime they have alternate rules and fully support 3PP. It's not the "most modular ever" pipe dream that was mentioned in one interview with Mearls, but it's not like there aren't still plenty of options out there.

Very true, there are an overwhelming amount of options. I think there’s a sense of trust out there, likely at least for newer DMs, that WotC’s guidelines are rules are the one true way to play, and would more readily follow those and believe they’re the “right” way to play without altering them for their table. There’s clearly a demand out there for games like Elden Ring, so it wouldn’t be entirely unlikely that WotC could target those types of players with variants.

 

[Oofta]

Not really. It is popular because of branding and influencers with younger players. It is popular because the onus which once hung on the heads of those playing it is long gone. There are a lot of people out there who like other versions of D&D more or who just outright prefer non-D&D RPGs.

Sorry, I don't buy it. No amount of advertising or brand recognition would see the kind of growth we saw with 5E. It gave a lot of previous editions a head start and initially good sales, but those sales always dropped off quickly because it just didn't expand the audience. With 5E they broke that tradition, the game kept growing by double digits for years on end.

 

[Oofta]

Very true, there are an overwhelming amount of options. I think there’s a sense of trust out there, likely at least for newer DMs, that WotC’s guidelines are rules are the one true way to play, and would more readily follow those and believe they’re the “right” way to play without altering them for their table. There’s clearly a demand out there for games like Elden Ring, so it wouldn’t be entirely unlikely that WotC could target those types of players with variants.

I have mixed feelings about the OGL (I think it may have stifled innovation and competition) but WotC seems to be embracing it now with 3PP being sold directly on DDB. But there's never any guarantee of quality with whatever company publishes the rules and WotC flooding the market with books simply led to confusion.

Letting other entities take the risk of alternative rules may not work for some people, it seems to have worked for WotC.

 

[ezo]

Sorry, I don't buy it. No amount of advertising or brand recognition would see the kind of growth we saw with 5E. It gave a lot of previous editions a head start and initially good sales, but those sales always dropped off quickly because it just didn't expand the audience.

Why don't you buy it???

With 5E they broke that tradition, the game kept growing by double digits for years on end.

Do you honestly NOT see the continued advertising, influencing, etc. that happens with every new product and such!?! It isn't like those things have exactly stopped, have they??

Not to mention 5E originating in the 40th anniversary and not 5E 2024 in the 50th!

These things absolutely had huge impact on the financial success of 5E and will continue to do so in all likelihood. Advertising, promoting, influencing are just good business practacies. And we know how well TSR ran it's business back then... ::shakes head in shame::

I'm not saying 5E doesn't have good design elements (some anyway), but the bulk of the design is based on prior editions and feedback gained from those editions.

 

[Maxperson]

People are saying things like "It is easy to kill characters if you want to" like the GMs wanted that and framing this as GMs vs players. That is completely missing the point. I, as GM, don't want to kill the PCs, and I absolutely do want the players to have good time. Which means I want to give them actually exiting and challenging fights that are still winnable.

That a euphemism for death?

And the game gives me basically no tools for achieving that. All the guidelines are so absurdly undertuned, that following them gets us just pointless boring slog with no challenge. I don't want, that, the players don't want that. So I just have to blindly guess how much overtuning the encounters will be enough to not to be a boring pushover but not a guaranteed TPK either. I've erred in the former direction several times in this guessing, and one day I'll err in the latter.

Yeah. I totally agree. My big issue with the game balance is that if I stick down a monster that can survive 3-5 rounds of PCs going nova every round because I don't use the adventuring day encounter numbers, that monster will be of such a high CR that the to hit, save bonuses and damage output will often TPK the group.

I don't want to feel like I'm walking a tightrope every time I want to challenge the group with a single encounter.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That a euphemism for death?

Oops! Well spotted!
Fixed.

Yeah. I totally agree. My big issue with the game balance is that if I stick down a monster that can survive 3-5 rounds of PCs going nova every round because I don't use the adventuring day encounter numbers, that monster will be of such a high CR that the to hit, save bonuses and damage output will often TPK the group.

I don't want to feel like I'm walking a tightrope every time I want to challenge the group with a single encounter.

I just change the monster stats. For anything I intend to last I give more HP. And whilst what you say is true for some monsters, some are weirdly weak hitters for their CR. I've ended up increasing the damage of the melee attacks of bigger dragons, as they don't hit hard enough. (It still ended up being a pushover.) I guess the CR expects most of the damage to be from the breath weapon, but if the PCs know beforehand what they're facing, they will bring resistance potions.* Also, there are several ways to to gain ability to take no damage at all on successful dex saves (evasion, shield master) and that's what most breath weapons target.

(* And this in itself is not bad thing. I think smart play and preparation should matter.)

 

[Vaalingrade]

I see we're back to the logic that would argue that McDonalds is the highest quality food available thanks to its popularity. Always nice to see that canard deployed.